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Nothingness is the aim?
So In my daily readings online as I am trying to educate myself, and was slightly shocked and confused and the same time when I stumbled upon this.
I was reading about Taoism (Which is a whooole different thread lol) and the difference between it and Buddhism.
It claims, that Buddhist belief the following in terms, of the ultimate goal as the following..
In order to overcome Dukkha, Buddhists strive to reach "Nirvana," or Enlightenment. Enlightenment is obtained through non-selfish behavior, following the 8 fold noble paths of Buddha and stopping the process of rebirth. When one ceases to be reborn, they lose all form, self and conscience. They return to the nothingness out of which everything is made.
So the aim is not to be reborn? And to return to nothing...? The ultimate goal is to reach Buddha (Enlightenment) and then die to become...Nothing?
Also as a side question, where does Taoism fit in do Buddhism, and a Buddhist life? Are they fundamentally the same although different? How do you feel about Taoism, and have any of you practiced or used to be taoists before becoming Buddhists? Are taoists and Buddhists...one in the same?
Just think..one day soon...I may not have anymore questions lol... Till then you people may be stuck with me
:D
Love
Richard
I was reading about Taoism (Which is a whooole different thread lol) and the difference between it and Buddhism.
It claims, that Buddhist belief the following in terms, of the ultimate goal as the following..
In order to overcome Dukkha, Buddhists strive to reach "Nirvana," or Enlightenment. Enlightenment is obtained through non-selfish behavior, following the 8 fold noble paths of Buddha and stopping the process of rebirth. When one ceases to be reborn, they lose all form, self and conscience. They return to the nothingness out of which everything is made.
So the aim is not to be reborn? And to return to nothing...? The ultimate goal is to reach Buddha (Enlightenment) and then die to become...Nothing?
Also as a side question, where does Taoism fit in do Buddhism, and a Buddhist life? Are they fundamentally the same although different? How do you feel about Taoism, and have any of you practiced or used to be taoists before becoming Buddhists? Are taoists and Buddhists...one in the same?
Just think..one day soon...I may not have anymore questions lol... Till then you people may be stuck with me
:DLove
Richard
0
Comments
That's pretty much how I understand it and what seems to be implied by Buddha. (I'll quote a passage when I get to my computer).
And in Zen and Mahayana in general, this is heavily emphasized (see Heart Sutra).
D. T. Suzuki said Zen is a bottomless abyss (I know he doesn't represent all of Buddhism, but I like his understanding of it).
Taoism and Buddhism are not the same, but have some aspects that overlap Buddhism and other aspects that seem complimentary to Buddhism. Zen is actually a combination of Taoism and Buddhism. So they do seem to go hand in hand.
.
I think a better way of stating it is that one arrives at a "realization of the emptiness of inherent existence". I think Theravadin gets a bad rap for being nihilistic because it's too easily misunderstood, and I think that has partly to do with the terminology used, the translation of the terminology used, and the lack of "positive" statements about the nature of reality. It's not "nothingness" so much as it is a state about which nothing can be said, or about which very little can be said. Much of early Buddhism shows a reluctance to actually describe the ultimate nature of reality, because any attempts to describe that or to put linguistic attributes on it are logically inconsistent and therefore impossible.
I myself substitute the word "suchness" for "emptiness".
That is the union of luminosity (appearance) and emptiness (which can be formulated as emptiness of self or other)
I recommend reading the heart sutra if you want to hear the vibe from Tibetan and other Mahayana buddhism..
I am less informed for a suggestion of a Theravadin reading :sadc:
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The sincere practitioner Avalokitesvara
while intently practicing the Perfection of Wisdom Meditation
perceived that all of the five phenomenal aggregates are empty of inherent existence
and was thereby saved from all suffering and distress. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]He told Shariputra:
Form does not differ from emptiness,
emptiness does not differ from form.
That which is form is emptiness,
that which is emptiness is form. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The same is true of feelings,
perceptions, impulses, and consciousness. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Shariputra,
all perceived phenomena are marked with emptiness.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]They do not appear or disappear,
they are neither tainted nor pure,
nor do they increase or decrease. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Therefore, in emptiness there is no form, no feeling,
no perception, no impulse, and no consciousness. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind;
no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch,
no object of mind,
no mind to perceive,
and so forth[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]until it is clear that there is no realm of mental consciousness. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There is no ignorance nor extinction of ignorance,
and so forth until no old age and death
and also no extinction of these phenomena. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There is no suffering, no origination,
no stopping, no path, no cognition,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]no chicken, no egg,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]nor is there attainment, because there is nothing to attain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If the sincere practitioner depends on the Perfection of Wisdom Meditation,
and the mind is not a hindrance,
without any hindrance no fears exist.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
Far apart from every incorrect view one dwells in the final state of seeing clearly. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In the innumerable worlds and dimensions
all sincere practitioners depend on the Perfection of Wisdom Meditation
and thereby attain the final state of seeing clearly. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Therefore know that the Mantra of the Perfection of Wisdom
is the great transcendent mantra,
the great clarifying mantra,
the ultimate mantra,
the supreme mantra
which is able to relieve all suffering,
is perfectly clear,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]and is beyond any mistaken perception. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
So proclaim the Mantra of the Perfection of Wisdom.
Proclaim the mantra which says: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha. [/FONT]
“[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Gone Beyond, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, gone to the other shore. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Clarity. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So it is.”[/FONT]
Sure, some practice with the aim to not be reborn but frankly, I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the dhamma as it implies that life is inherent suffering, that this world and life is samsara itself. I feel samsara is a mental process, a tendency towards clinging and dukkha through ignorance. The aim is Nibbana ultimately, which literally means to "extinguish," that is, the fires of greed/aversion/delusion and experience life without clinging/dukkha. Nibbana is "the ending of dukkha."
From the Nibbana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html
I would strongly recommend reading this page on Nibbana with quotes from the suttas, as it addresses many of your questions: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca3/nibbana.html
You will find few longtime Mahayanists who would agree that the Heart Sutra suggests this: http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3942
In my limited experience and humble opinion. It's just a matter of personal taste, but early/Theravada just seems so dry to me that I've avoided reading it. I guess I've limited myself in that regard, huh?
_ There is no such thing as a "nothingness". An absence is an absence of something that affirms the presence of something else.
_ There is no such thing as an "ultimate reality" called "nothingness".
A flower is not a flower [existing as a separate permanent thing]. That is how it is a flower [existing ineffably I guess you could say....no flower part that IS the flower all parts impermanent.... or you could say a magical display a conjurers trick]
<table border="1" width="70%"><tbody><tr><td>THE PRINCIPLE OF UNITY: TAO</td> </tr> <tr> <td>THE PRINCIPLE OF PURE AWARENESS: WU CHI</td> </tr> <tr> <td> THE PRINCIPLE OF HARMONY AND CHANGE: YIN AND YANG</td> </tr> <tr> <td>THE PRINCIPLE OF VIRTUE: TE</td> </tr> <tr> <td>THE PRINCIPLE OF VITAL ENERGY: QI</td> </tr> <tr> <td>THE PRINCIPLE OF NATURALNESS: ZI RAN</td> </tr> <tr> <td>THE PRINCIPLE OF NON-DOING: WU WEI</td> </tr> <tr> <td>THE PRINCIPLE OF NO-MIND: WU- HSIN </td> </tr> <tr> <td>THE PRINCIPLE OF THE UNCARVED BLOCK: PU</td> </tr> <tr> <td> THE PRINCIPLE OF THE THREE JEWELS: SANBAO</td></tr></tbody></table>
Now, again, as with my current study/practice of Buddhism, I had no access to a Taoist Master or to anyone else who knew anything about Taoism (No Forum of super knowledgeable people either) so this is just from my readings and limited understandings and by no means to be taken as an authority on the subject.
I will put out some info about each principle and not compare it myself to Buddhism but let those who know more about Buddhism state whether they believe this is in line with Buddhism, against it, or complementary...
Looks like I need to go in and fix the images on those pages...
Love your questions, R. I think the author that you read is mis-translating or misunderstanding the Buddhist concept of Emptiness ... which is definitely not "nothingness".
Everyone (I am sorry to sum you all up as everyone, be sure I do, and recognize all of you individually for helping me daily in my questions) Thank you for helping me understand this better!!
I now understand there is a difference between nothingness and emptiness, although I am still slightly confused on what or why emptiness is the goal.
But tomorrow is another day or reading, and mindfulness (Well I will try)
If you're avoiding Theravada then you're missing out on a lot, Sherab Dorje. After being a Vajrayana practitioner for many years, investigating the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition as well as Buddha's core teachings in the Pali Canon has been a much needed breath of fresh air for me !
_/\_
.
Join the club! It takes years to begin to understand emptiness, and that understanding doesn't come through the mind but through experience.