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Lots of questions regarding anatta/nirvana/mindstream/rebirth
I want to make sure my perspective on this is right.
When one reaches nirvana he no longer creates mental formations of himself and other objects, correct? As such, isn't it still possible for an enlightened being to exist? He simply just doesn't exist in a manner in which we would typically call existence.
I am trying to piece this together with the concept of anatta, in which the mind is in a continual state of rebirth due to its formations of "I am" and "That is a cat" and can reach liberation through cessation of such formations.
I've also read of nirvana as being an expanded awareness of things as they are. This is physically/mentally impossible. As such, we have reference to a mindstream, which I no doubt have misinterpreted as an evolving consciousness in continual flux between lifetimes. What is this mindstream? How does this mindstream facilitate continued growth in the path, if at all?
When one reaches nirvana he no longer creates mental formations of himself and other objects, correct? As such, isn't it still possible for an enlightened being to exist? He simply just doesn't exist in a manner in which we would typically call existence.
I am trying to piece this together with the concept of anatta, in which the mind is in a continual state of rebirth due to its formations of "I am" and "That is a cat" and can reach liberation through cessation of such formations.
I've also read of nirvana as being an expanded awareness of things as they are. This is physically/mentally impossible. As such, we have reference to a mindstream, which I no doubt have misinterpreted as an evolving consciousness in continual flux between lifetimes. What is this mindstream? How does this mindstream facilitate continued growth in the path, if at all?
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I've heard claims that the Buddha didn't speak of or imply the existence of reincarnation after death, yet I am fairly certain that while reading excerpts from the Pali Canon that he has. How does a mindstream lead to reincarnation when there is no brain to create the mental formations which would lead to continual rebirth in the first place? If there is such a thing as a mindstream that exists between death and reincarnation, wouldn't it be a mentally created pseudo soul of sorts?
I'm trying to clear this all up. I know many of you don't believe in reincarnation and/or claim that Buddha didn't but I'm fairly certain that I have read otherwise.
http://formlesspath-sunthosh.blogspot.com/2010/05/reincarnation-in-buddhism-what-buddha.html
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"If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or Soul behind them after the non-functioning of the body?
"When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. ... Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."
Zen teacher John Daido Loori said,'
...
'There is no question that many Buddhists, East and West, continue to believe in individual reincarnation. Parables from the sutras and "teaching aids" like the Tibetan Wheel of Life tend to reinforce this belief.
The Rev. Takashi Tsuji, a Jodo Shinshu priest, wrote about belief in reincarnation:
"It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.
"...A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality.""
Regarding how consciousness migrates my lama believes that since reincarnation connects different bodies at different places it must exist outside of time and space. She also points out that karma is just an appearance. Cause and effect is an appearance. She says that in her meditation she gets insight into the nature of reality that makes her increasingly convinced:
Personally in my own meditation I am not yet at her realizations of course but it is interesting to hear what she has experienced.
PS you might want to check out my thread - starting point - in the beginners section
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra ----sankhara - nibbana -
It is are fact, DhammaDhatu. The Internet hath spoken.
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Researching_with_Wikipedia
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That said, I think it would be a good idea to give this your consideration:
This was compiled entirely by a fellow Buddhist and someone well-known to me.
His name is Stefan, and he was commended for it by the Founders.
He is also actively doing his best to improve other matters on Wikipedia, but admittedly it's an uphill struggle.
But I would definitely use other less vulnerable sources for your information.
Yes.
Yes.
Why?
Yes.
Yes.
Buddha taught rebirth via karma and not via 'mindstream'.
Yes.
Buddha taught the reincarnation of karma.
'Continuity' becomes redundant in liberation.
What is the purpose of this? What benefit is derived from this view? Please explain how does this help us?
Hi Beydan,
I am in the same position you are. The idea of future lives seems deeply embedded in the literature, and I have tried to make sense of it to no avail. Indeed, a rational understanding of how rebirth exactly takes place seems like an impossible task. I just can't make sense of it.
Oh well. If the purpose of teaching rebirth was to foster morality, we don't we simply practice morality and cast rebirth aside? Still, I admit, the question disturbs me.
At first glance, this seems like a great explanation of why rebirth appears in the canon and why we can reject a literal interpretation of rebirth. One of the beautiful things about Buddhism is that there is room for interpretation given by Buddha's conversations with different audiences.
What bugs me is that while "simple village folks" may have been ignorant, that doesn't mean they were stupid. They may have lacked knowledge, but their ability to comprehend knowledge was exactly the same as their more learned counterparts, such as the monks. Humans simply don't differ that much in intelligence (our innate ability to learn).
Humans having different capacities and thus receiving different instructions sounds great, but I think it's partially untrue. I don't think there's any reason why those village people couldn't comprehend the "supramundane" teachings, if someone had given the time to explain it to them. The quote above makes it sound like the Buddha lied to the stupid people so that they wouldn't act immorally. I'm just not comfortable with the idea of the Buddha behaving in such a fashion.
The scriptures show the village folks were not taught the supramundane teachings.
Have you considered that possibly the teacher who spoke the quote could be a liar?
The Buddha does not lie. The Buddha taught rebirth occurs due to karma. The Buddha did not provide a meta-physical explanation of rebirth. All he taught was the results of karma. Buddhas do not lie. This is clearly understood.
Your view is contrary to the scriptures. The scriptures state:
:smilec:
If Buddha's realization could not be grasped by most people the state of affairs would be sad indeed.
Is our world full of enlightened beings & enlightened actions??
Pearl, as an experienced schoolteacher who's worked extensively with kids with various kinds of learning difficulties, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to tell you that you're mistaken. People differ a great deal in their abilities and their capacity for learning and processing information.
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thank you for providing the sutta references; they are helpful.
I was looking at MN 143. Don't you think that it confirms the point that a householder has the capacity, but not always the opportunity, to benefit from the supramundane teachings?
The dying householder understands and benefits from the teaching of Sariputta and he says to him:
"In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it."
Didn't the Buddha spend 50 years at nirvana?
Do you think tin those years he never made any such "formations"?
namaste
http://fraughtwithperil.com/rbeck/2010/04/23/nirodha-cessation-or-release/
a more appropriate translation.
I think it's far more likely that the Buddha taught rebirth because he believed in it, both in a literal and a more metaphorical sense. In that way, he never spoke falsely.
Sure the Buddha was pragmatic, but that doesn't mean he was empirical.
Yes, the Buddha thought belief in rebirth among lay people encouraged morality, which is a practical aim; however, he himself made metaphysical claims of being able to recount many previous lives.
We today, make sharp distinctions between metaphorical and literal meanings; we try to separate myth from fact. Yet, maybe for people of this time, including the Buddha, the physical world and the world of imagination were inextricably intertwined. I see no reason why the Buddha or his followers wouldn't have believed in previous and future lives.
Don't you think the reason the Buddha focused on rebirth/morality with the lay people was more a function of priority than capacity? Some of those people were only going to hear the Buddha speak a few times in their lives before they died and were presumably reborn.