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The Salvation Army
Magwang
Veteran
Last year my wife and I decided to find and join a local Christian congregation. She's a divorced/disillusioned Catholic, and I walk the Buddha's Middle Way.
We ended up at the Salvation Army, because we felt very comfortable there. Even I like them, despite the fact I am wary of evangelicals. These people walk the walk - helping addicts, criminals and homeless.
I did not tell anyone there that I was Buddhist. It's not a secret, I just feel I should respect their ways when I am with them. And it's not my style to be in people's faces anyway.
Anyway, last week Colonel X, in his sermon, said something like "...I don't want to offend anyone of other faiths, but Jesus is the ONLY way...". That was my cue to open the subject. So afterwards I went up to him (out of earshot of anyone) and said "I'm a Buddhist, and you've never offended me!".
I meant that as a sincere compliment - I have great respect for the man and the uniform, even if I don't follow their doctine. See Salvation Army Doctrine .
He seemed surprised and asked some intelligent questions. But I get the disctinct impression he sees me differently now, and has taken a stance oppposite to me, however polite. When I see him he throws out tidbits like "you know the Buddha taught self-reliance, and that you don't need God" (which is the opposite of what they believe: that man cannot save himself but needs God's grace).
We agreed to meet privately to talk more, which I am looking forward to. I really like these people. I want to keep an open mind, and I want to learn. To use their own military analogy: I see myself as an ally, but I am not one of them.
But I am afraid that we are heading for an impasse. I see one of three possible outcomes:
1) I may accept Jesus and be saved (not likely but you never know!);
2) They may accept me as the token Buddhist, but will be an outsider;
3) We live in harmony, working together in compassion for the less fortunate
I'm hoping for #3.
I'll keep you posted.
Magwang.
We ended up at the Salvation Army, because we felt very comfortable there. Even I like them, despite the fact I am wary of evangelicals. These people walk the walk - helping addicts, criminals and homeless.
I did not tell anyone there that I was Buddhist. It's not a secret, I just feel I should respect their ways when I am with them. And it's not my style to be in people's faces anyway.
Anyway, last week Colonel X, in his sermon, said something like "...I don't want to offend anyone of other faiths, but Jesus is the ONLY way...". That was my cue to open the subject. So afterwards I went up to him (out of earshot of anyone) and said "I'm a Buddhist, and you've never offended me!".
I meant that as a sincere compliment - I have great respect for the man and the uniform, even if I don't follow their doctine. See Salvation Army Doctrine .
He seemed surprised and asked some intelligent questions. But I get the disctinct impression he sees me differently now, and has taken a stance oppposite to me, however polite. When I see him he throws out tidbits like "you know the Buddha taught self-reliance, and that you don't need God" (which is the opposite of what they believe: that man cannot save himself but needs God's grace).
We agreed to meet privately to talk more, which I am looking forward to. I really like these people. I want to keep an open mind, and I want to learn. To use their own military analogy: I see myself as an ally, but I am not one of them.
But I am afraid that we are heading for an impasse. I see one of three possible outcomes:
1) I may accept Jesus and be saved (not likely but you never know!);
2) They may accept me as the token Buddhist, but will be an outsider;
3) We live in harmony, working together in compassion for the less fortunate
I'm hoping for #3.
I'll keep you posted.
Magwang.
0
Comments
I know these kind of people - I grew up with them whole life. "Jesus" is the only way - everyone else is going to Hell - blah, blah, blah.
Even when I was a part of this mentality, I could still appreciate someone else's views because, even if nothing else, even Paul wrote in his letters to the churches, "Let us reason together." He didn't go around beating people in the head if they didn't believe in Jesus. In fact, there are stories where he simply talked to people about his god - and let them decide for themselves.
I would hope for option 3 and maybe people will come to the conclusion: "Just because I believe in Jesus - doesn't mean that there are other people out there who could care less about Jesus - but are still good people following their own path. And... I can respect that."
Do Christians feel they are the only type of person that is good enough to help their fellow man?
-bf
There's no way around it, most of the time. A true christian is absolutely convinced - Jesus is the only way - there is no compromise.
Sad...
-bf
Jesus was very passionate about people behaving in a proper, moral, and compassionate way. Is that not similiar to what the Buddha taught?
It is true that the main difference between them is that the Buddha taught we didn't need to rely on any gods for salvation, however, that is a personal choice that comes from faith - not fear.
I believe that if he is an open-minded individual you will have no problems. I can't see how anyone would turn away someone who puts forth effort to learn, understand, and help the less fortunate.
I'm hoping for #3 too!
But I would have a question before any such conversation: if you want to achieve outcome 3, will a theological debate help?
The great strength of the Sally Ann lies in social action. It is here, in the notion of our interbeing, that you may find common ground. And we need that ground so that, should we stray into areas of deep disagreement, we can take refuge where we agree. I'm not sure how trhe SA operates in the US but, over here, I have found that they do not 'blackmail' people into Christianity.
It is also courteous to learn as much as possible about his beliefs and the particular theological stance of the Army.
I am quite certsin that outcome 3 can be achieved. It is the only compassionate outcome and the Noble Eightfold Path does not have to be 'preached', it has to be practised.
Although I actually enjoy theological discussion, I have zero interest in getting sucked into a debate with Colonel X, for severals reasons:
1) It doesn't get you anywhere and usually just isolates people
2) I feel no need to justify myself to them
3) Even though I don't hold to their views, I believe in their right to believe them
4) Faith is the "raft to get you to the other shore" - a means to an end, so don't get too hung up on it.
BTW, I did lend him the book "Living Buddha, Living Christ", by Thich Nhat Hanh. But thanks Simon for the tip - I'll check out the Ground We Share.
I told him my decision to "disclose" my Buddhist practice was out of respect and I assured him that I would never raise the subject while I am a guest there. I really do want to keep an open mind, and admit that my knowledge of Christianity is too limited to make any definitive decisions yea or nay.
His view is that Buddhist morality is fine and admirable, but it is still imperative to have a relationship with Jesus. Salvation is not possible without that. Since our time was limited, I was reluctant to open up some serious questions I have. I decided to save those hard-hitting questions for a more appropriate time, and after I've had a chance to read some more.
He was very courteous and respectful, it was clear to me that he sees me as mistaken and in need of salvation. I told him there are many other people out there in greater need of salvation, and he said "No there isn't". I am prepared for the fact that I may be in fact mistaken, although my instincts tell me otherwise.
I will keep you posted.
Perhaps. But I am involved regardless. I am there in support of my wife. Honestly, if she wasn't a Christian, I would not be there. But since I am, why not try to learn something about how the other half lives?
I don't know if you are aware, but I've been taking a second language. It's call American Genryu. Very difficult because the language is quite small, but when translated into, oh, let's say English - the interpretation is much larger.
So... when someone says "you're wasting your time"
It actually translates to:
I wish you well with your endeavors, but it is my belief that trying to follow the teachings of Buddha and Christ are diametrically(sp?) opposed. When shedding "self", "clingings" ,etc. we would probably find that eventually, we would have to shed Christ.
<hint, hint... ZM...>
Good luck with your pursuit.
-bf
I'm realizing that now. So when attending services with my family, I will put my fingers in my ears and go LAH LAH LAH I'M NOT LISTENING...
::
There is a reason there is a saying that goes...
"That went over like a lead fart in church!"
-bf
This thread is quite interesting, as you may or not know, My wife is Catholic/Christian also and has been on the receiving end of the Salvo's generosity as a poor family/child. I support her in her faith in Christ and her understanding of the Dharma (she's probably more buddhist than me-in some respects).
I tend to look at this discussion with an open heart and mind-I think it is a good thing for us to all look at other interpretations of scriptures whether they be Buddhist, Christian or Islamic for that matter-for our own decision-making process as to which is the "Correct Way" for each of us. I have wanted to discuss many times the understanding that the Mormons have of their "truth" as they see it, But I have been unable to on the occasions that they have decided to knock on our door.
For me, healthy interest in all things-creates a more worldy individual.
Good for you, for doing the good Buddhist/good Christian thing-Supportting your Wife and family-perhaps the feeling may spread worldwide one day...
regards,
Xray
I do not know if this is just my attachment to disbelief and skepticism or maybe my sister's ignorance of different viewpoints. Perhaps it is a little of both...
I'm no Saint either! I learn lessons every day when I talk (sometimes out of turn).
regards,
Xrayman
LOL, nope. I meant that Magwang is wasting time and will achieve and learn absolutely nothing of any real use at all from this.
I stand corrected
-bf
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I'm not going to discuss my conversations with Colonel X over the internet anymore.
I don't know what God means, but I value Colonel X's friendship and trust.
::
::
Good for you! I just wanted to butt to say I applaud your magnanimity in supporting your wife, the wisdom of restraint you show in trying to keep the doctrinal conflict between Buddhism and Christianity a non-issue when visiting their church, your honesty in disclosing your beliefs up front, and most of all your patience and friendliness with Colonel X's proselytizing efforts. I just wanted to encourage you in all those areas, but further in your Buddhist faith and practice as a whole.
in friendliness,
V.
Fede, I'm not sure what you mean by your last post.
Thanks, V!
No disrespect to ZenMonk, but I have very much learned something from this, quite worthwhile. My practise feels stronger because of this.
May the seed of friendship that has been planted here
bring forth a fruit with a suprising taste, something unexpected:
that we may see each other in new ways.
And that this fruit will produce seeds that,
after we are gone,
spread around the globe
in the name of peace.
Amen.
*** Federica, please close this thread. ***
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I guess the original subject was my experience with the Salvation Army, not a particular individual.
Thanks Fede, you're right.
Leave it open.
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If you think you are not wasting your time, then you are not.
Also do not forget the power of the Buddhadharma. While you are not trying to convert them, your accepting, open attitude may speak more loudly to some of the Army folk, than the preachy, narrow views they are used to.
HH the Dalai Lama said Buddhism could learn a great deal from Xtian service groups, like the SA. They are well organized, funded and blessedly practical. We Buddhists have been weak in such basic food, shelter, clothing service for hundreds of years.
This is offiically the last post you will get from me regarding this. Sorry I can't dish, but our friendship means more to me.
::
::
*Gassho*, Magwang. This is respectful indeed.
It would be so good if Colonel X would, himself, join us.
How wonderful to see someone using Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Mindfulness, etc. regarding others.
Kudos to you.
-bf