Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Questions about karma and rebirth
Is karma just a general truism (you reap what you sow), or is there a tighter causal association (if A then B invariably follows)?
Also, how is rebirth understood, figuratively or literally?
I ask this from an uncertain but largely naturalist position on metaphysics.
Also, how is rebirth understood, figuratively or literally?
I ask this from an uncertain but largely naturalist position on metaphysics.
0
Comments
This is Nirvana.
As to rebirth, it is understood in either way or both depending upon tradition and personal belief. That's one that a person will argue over, will defend, like a dog with a bone. I wouldn't recommend just taking someone's word for it. As the Buddha said, believe nothing no matter who said it, where you read it, even if he said it.....unless it accords with your own reason and your own common sense.
Namaste
For every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction.
Woof!
So it's a take it or leave it kind of teaching in Buddhism?
For me, karma is a general truism. For example, often positive lessons are learned from painful karma so obviously it is not all bad.
For example, the Buddha taught the condition for faith & subsequent enlightenment is suffering. From suffering comes enlightenment therefore karma can only be a general truism.
Figuratively it is always true but literally it is only true speculatively.
For example, if a person robs a bank and ends up in prison, that prison is "hell". But if rebirth is literal rather than figurative, then the robber does not reap in this life but we can only speculate they reap "hell" in the next life.
In short, the figurative approach discerns the karma reaped in this life and, if there is a next life, then also in the next life.
But the literal approach holds karma is only reaped in the next life.
It follows the literal approach will result in these people not believing in karma & its results.
But a figurative approach will result in these people believing in karma & its results.
The figurative approach has the most benefit because it accommodates both this life and the next life (for those who believe in a next life).
:smilec:
Mundane wholesome actions can reap suffering.
Example, I am kind, generous & sacrificing to my partner and they suddenly leave me and I am heart broken.
:sadc:
Wholesome actions can sometimes lead to negative reactions. 'We' do not have such control that we can predict the outcome or the later events. There are many other processes taking place that are not 'us'. All that we can do is learn how to act wholly out of compassion, selflessness and with right view of reality.
Buddhism helps us do this, firstly with precepts to avoid the unwholesome and engender the wholesome, and after that's taken care of we try to fully understand the teachings and practice insight meditation to actually know for ourselves that our path is the right one. The child is told not to stick their hand in the fire as a precaution, but they must learn for themselves (somehow) the reason 'why' eventually, or they will end up doing it anyway.
If the mind doesn't get the why, progress is a no-go. Yet still if we at least practice what we preach and follow the precepts, our deeds will be as the child who listens to the parent. Not of final right view born, but of initial right view.....and sometimes that'll just have to be enough.
Namaste
Well, I was playing with Newton's wording of the first law of mechanics, but since sentient beings are not mechanical things, it is more complicated. In principle, Newton's phrasing still applies to the storage of kamma, which in turn influences our experience as beings in this world, but the reaction is not mechanical and the time between generation and result (vipaka) is variable. Kamma is often compared to seeds being planted, stored, and sprouting when the conditions are right. Thus the fruition of kamma depends on conditions; it comes to fruition only if the proper conditions are met. This can be instant, delayed in this life, delayed between lifes, or delayed in another life.
Yes, precisely. This is the problem that non-rebirthers must explain. What happens to kamma upon death? If there is no rebirth, then kamma dies at the moment of death. It might even be possible to cheat simply by preventing conditions for undesired vipaka and fostering conditions for desired vipaka in this life. I don't think this interpretation is compatible with Buddhism, but that's of course just my view.
Cheers, Thomas
If you take karma to mean teachings to show you how the unwholesome states of mind perpetuate, and how skillful means plant the seeds that lead to fruition (awakening), then you take karma and rebirth to mean practical things for this one and only life that we know of; otherwise we tend to believe the first option. Some do, and some do not. In this way, karma shows that regardless (in this case and the prior), what you do now changes the mind now, can lead to awakening if skillful means and right effort are applied.
Both have their merits, both have their pitfalls if taken too far. I prefer the second as it seems more in accord with the rest of the teachings if those other teachings are all compared between traditions. Probably more in that it actually helped me to understand the way of the subconscious and the only true way to 'change your mind'.
Namaste
Well, I didn't understand the literal approach to mean that karma is only reaped in a next existence, but rather that it is not only reaped in this existence. Once again, if rebirth is understood figuratively, it seems easier to accept but then reduced to nothing more than a metaphor.
I believe he was probably referring to Buddhaghosa's traditional D.O. interpretation which is in turn the traditional view of kamma and rebirth in Buddhism. That is, that kamma from your past life conditions this life, and kamma from this conditions the next.
"Reduced to"...? Which is more significant and profound in the practice to the ending of self-identification, the ending of dukkha?
Even many who take the literal interpretation also take the figurative in practice. If you don't, it becomes reincarnation, which is denied in Buddhism. It's just that, they also believe that, generally, consciousness or a mindstream etc. doesn't end with death.
Well said.
It's really a process of dependent arising - like the weather it's complex and hard to forecast beyond a couple of days.:)
P
Do you mean that if I kick a dog, then in this life a dog will kick me back? Or in a next life I will be a dog, and the dog will be a human, and that human will kick me back?
We are taught that every thought and every action forms an imprint (karma) on our being (either strengthening existing imprints, or creating new ones). And that we draw circumstances that are in-tune with our imprints. There's another thread on this site about instant karma ... and yes, you see other people based on your internal imprints, and how you see others affects how you treat them, which affects how they respond to you.
We are also taught that these circumstances include more than just how others respond to us ... in the concept of rebirth, the body and the family and the culture and the climate are all supposed to be determined by our imprints.
So if I kick the dog, then I must be strengthening an "anger" imprint and an "act out of anger" imprint. Certainly this will influence how I experience my life, and how others react to me, and what doors get closed because of my anger. Next life? If one believes in rebirth, then that anger imprint moves on into the next life and continues to affect me.
Rebirth? Some teachers teach rebirth literally. Some teach it figuratively. Plenty of room there for your preference. Because unless one remembers past lives and can somehow rule out mundane unconscious explanations, we really don't know, do we?
You might get kicked by the dog's owner straight away.;)
P
How can one obtain nibbana if the self is false and the soul is not semi-permanent enough to survive the "x" number of transitions it takes to reach nibbana?
Of course, if what is reborn is solely the concept of self, as in we teach it to later generations, either as a doctrine or else through our actions, then I can see how the individual, as well as society, can transition to nibbana as the concept is expunged from the world view of both the individual as well as the cultural conceptualization of the individual and the world. But then, it seems to not matter for the individual in the end whether this idea is expunged or not, since they will die and that will be the cessation of both self-identification and their impermanent soul. I suppose you might say that eliminating these ideas makes for a better life, but it hardly seems like a challenge to attain nibbana when all you have to do to reach it is die.
It seems to me that your answer is more in line with the second form, that kicking a dog is one step down a path of habitual anger and meanness, and that these traits are ill suited for a happy life for myself, as well as the general well being of the environment around me. I say environment since you included the climate in your list, but isn't the environment only a factor of well being for persons? In that case, it would seem to be covered already under the rubric of family and culture (society?).
Rebirth is switching to a new world-view/self-concept as an old world-view/self-concept is abandoned.
Plus, I have to be frank that it really does seem like early on Buddhism really did mean all the metaphysical talk, that rebirth really was some sort of continued existence through lifecycles and karma really is how reality operates and it follows you even after your death into whatever goes on to the next existence. It seems to me that it wasn't just an explanation of habituation, but a real effort at explaining how someone can have a bad hand dealt to them right from the beginning, beyond even what their own actions merit.
according to them,
there are four type of kamma
black cause/black kamma (involving in bad thoughts, bad speech, bad act) which brings bad effect
white cause/white kamma (involving in good thoughts, good speech, good act) which brings good effect
black and white cause/black and white kamma which brings good and bad effect
neither black nor good cause/neither black nor good kamma which do not bring any effect
if anyone can think about examples for these four types of kamma it would be appreciated
thanks
Could you provide links to the suttas you mentioned, please upekka ?
Many thanks.
Dazzle.
.
i have no idea about links to english translation
hope someone would provide the links
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Dhamma Dhatu
But the literal approach holds karma is only reaped in the next life.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
It is not consistent with my understanding either .... the belief is consistent with a fundamentalist atheist approach though
As Dhamma Dhatu was banned -and it says that under his name - I think that it is extremely unfair for people to comment on his posts when he is no longer here to reply to those comments himself.
.
As you can speak and understand English well, could I request that you post links to the individual suttas from the link below, please Upekka.
It would be really helpful rather than expecting readers to search the Pali Canon for ourselves if we want to look at the suttas you mention. Could you also give references such as the title of the group of suttas such as AN, SN, MN etc with the actual number and/or title of the individual sutta. (Which they have whatever the language of the translation)
Many thanks for your consideration.
Here's a website for suttas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/help.html#map
Kind wishes,
Dazzle
.
Re #34 -Your own post says "Originally Posted by Dhamma Dhatu " Andyrobyn, as do the posts of others, and you were already aware that he had been banned.
Very happy to see that you are realising this about discussions, Andy.
Still we should have some sensititity towards my friend DD when he is not here to reply.
With thanks and kind wishes to all.
Dazzle
.
:ot:
OOOps, Yes, it does I just wasn't paying attention to this as is common with me:o. It wasn't my intention to deny anyone a right of reply - please explain my faux paux if this will be beneficial to your friend.
Not sure about your second point, though it is off topic so if it is something that you wish to discuss with me may I suggest sending me a PM :type::bigclap::poke:
If you'd read my post again you'd have seen that there isn't an 'off topic' second point now, Andy, I edited it afterwards.
No, there isn't anything I want to discuss with you by PM, thanks.
.
My post wasnt for him, it was for other people who may read his ignorant post and be misled by it.
I doubt he needs you to protect him in his absence. The posts are public and the threads were bumped. His posts are fair game.
How rude.
.
give me time to go through it, please
Ariyamagga Sutta: The Noble Path
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2002–2010
<!-- robots content="none" -->
<!-- #H_meta --> <!-- #H_billboard --> <!-- /robots --> "Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.
"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication, fabricates an injurious verbal fabrication, fabricates an injurious mental fabrication. Having fabricated an injurious bodily fabrication, having fabricated an injurious verbal fabrication, having fabricated an injurious mental fabrication, he rearises in an injurious world. On rearising in an injurious world, he is there touched by injurious contacts. Touched by injurious contacts, he experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result.
"And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a non-injurious bodily fabrication ... a non-injurious verbal fabrication ... a non-injurious mental fabrication ... He rearises in a non-injurious world ... There he is touched by non-injurious contacts ... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Beautiful Black Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result.
"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.
"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.
"These, monks, are the four types of kamma directly realized, verified, & made known by me."
See also: MN 57; "Kamma and the Ending of Kamma" in The Wings to Awakening (Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
<!-- #content --> <!-- robots content="none" -->
Provenance: ©2002 Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
Transcribed from a file pr
Thanks very much Uppeka.
.