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Nirvana=Tao?
Is Nirvana the same 'thing' as Tao?
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Palzang
namaste
else is just playing libs services
Zen Buddhism is actually an amalgamation of the two. Taoism existed in China, and when Buddhism was introduced it was so much in the same spirit of the Tao that the two merged and 'Zen' was born.
More than this can be said, should be said, but it's easily enough Google'd.
Namaste
-Lao Tzu
Think of the beautiful gesture of the Buddha touching the earth, the sanity and clarity of that.
.....:p sorry just goofing.
"Yeast is yeast and nest is nest and never the mane shall tweet!"
Thanks,very helpful..
I think Nirvana is the experience of the Tao.
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Cheers, Thomas
I was thinking the same thing.
.
It becomes difficult to use language when describing such things as the Tao and nirvana, but in this case we might use simple logic. A "state of being" is modal by definition, whereas the "fundamental nature of the universe" is non-modal (also by definition). That's the principal difference.
Cheers, Thomas
Tricky stuff. "Fundamental nature of the universe" is not other than the modal. Our teacher slaps the red floor and says.. "The red floor is red" It always shuts me up.
(This is my view, so please don't take it wrongly or perceive it as anything other than an opinion. It is my opinion.)
It is only when we attribute a 'self' that we perceive this otherwise, such as an 'I' that shifts to a state of Nirvana and remains so until death. It is true that this is the case as far as an individual human is concerned (though temporary in the sense that the human 'dies', or the aggregates disperse for whatsoever purposes they may serve), so strive diligently to understand the teachings and gain insight!
[to Richard] By the way, what do you think your teacher tries to convey with 'the red floor is red'? There are several ways I can think of that this can be significant, so it depends on the very specific question or fundamental wrong-view. I'd just like to know personally, might be useful.
Namaste
Meaning is relative. You pick up a dictionary and each definition will take you on a journey through the rest of the dictionary, so he is not pointing to a meaning or significance, or an ultimate anything. He is stepping out of the web of meaning completely and that includes the notion of being meaningless.
He is pointing to an aloneness. Everything at once, is alone. Everything at once, is by itself, self-luminous. He is bringing us back to practice.
Directness is lovely. This reminds me of the line from the Avatamsaka Sutra, and one of my favorite sayings, "Things are not as they seem, nor are they otherwise."
Seriously dilated mushroom hahahahaha.
Richard H as in Richard Hermann?
Namaste
Teachers and students alike that I know, and have known, do not spend time on this talk. They talk about practice in the sense of knowing thought phenomena as thought phenomena, sitting again and again, going on retreats and slogging it out month after month, year after year.
The fact that "suchness" is closer to us than our own bones doesn't mean it is easy to realize, it is really hard to realize, and there are people who have been practicing for thirty years who never mention it.
I think we intuitively know we are it, and assume that by knowing this we have realized it, when we haven't. Most people who talk about it are in that place.
Realizing "suchness" is not Enlightenment. It is the "sudden awakening" that is the beginning of serious practice. Greed, Hatred and Delusion do not up and vanish with Non-dual realization. Some things do vanish, like all doubt, and all existential questions, but greed hatred and delusion still need to be worked through, gradually. Its gruntwork.
Yes Richard Herman. Thought there would be continuity with the avatar. I was the only person using my actual full name and it seemed to stand out. I'd prefer to standout with cogent and inspired posts:D
Sorry for mis-spelling your name.
Namaste
tao at most is refering to the objective reality phenamena , without the subjective wisdom
in buddha dharma , at the time of buddhahood, our unpure consciousness is changed to the enlightened wisdom ( bodhi , buddha nature )
Is he saying shut up and pay attention politely?
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.
I don't find that to be really very true. I would say "Those who know, do not insist. Those who insist, do not know." Even great and open teachers say. They just say the right things.
In the case of the floor, it seems to me he is saying don't get lost in conceptual nihilism. Objects do have meaning to us. The floor is red, even if the convention of floor is a convention, the convention of red is a convention etc. Conventional reality is real, and not to be abandoned. Its only to be penetrated so we do not become swept into it, going to war if someone comes along and calls it green.
With warmth,
Matt
Conventional reality is like a dream. Red or green are conventions :- to a color-blind they may not even exist. To one born deaf there may be no such thing as "music".
Hi Thomas
Could you explain further what you mean here? Do you mean that a state of being is contingent while the fundamental nature of universe is necessary?
I said what slapping the floor was about. The Lotus blooms under a mighty sea, and horse feathers abound. :buck: Lets say the best we can.
I prefer not to go further into that. What's been said is all that can be said, or -more likely- it was a already too much. Instead allow me to quote the first verse of the Tao Te Ching:
The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The name is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Send your desires away and you will see the mystery.
Be filled with desire and you will see only the manifestation.
As these two come forth they differ in name.
Yet at their source they are the same.
This source is called a mystery.
Darkness within darkness, the gateway to all mystery.
Cheers, Thomas
Yes, this is precisely what I said... both conventional and absolute reality exist (and/or both don't exist... exist/not-exist are like red/not-red) so insisting the floor is not red isn't right. To say there is music is ok, but assuming everyone relates to music in the same way is askance.
for Buddha Dharma, the Buddha or those who attained Buddhahood , would set to turn the Dharma wheel , snatch the saha world from the devil of 6th heaven / our innate fundamental darkness and transform it to Buddhaland / fundamental buddhahood to benefit and liberal the masses
for this, the subjective enlightened mind would take the active action to influence and transform the objective reality phenomena , that's why when the historial Buddha attained his nirvana at the age of 32, he spend the next 50 years travelling and preach his enlightened wisdom to awaken the masses, and he kept his enlightened wisdom ( spiritual aspect ) to endure for the next 2500 odd years to benefit the future generations with his estabishment of the Buddhist sanghas and sutras.
in comparison of historical fact, the Buddha teaching have sucessfully established into practical social standard in many culture and buddhist nations, the tao on the other hand , have actually never had any sucessful actualization in social standard nor phenomena , it only exist in the form of theory .
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I think on balance I'd go with jinzang's answer. Short and sweet, and I suspect it's close to the truth.