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Drugs debate
Do not Take Intoxicants is one of the five precepts, so what do you guys make of:
Illegal drugs?
Legal drugs?
Prescription drugs?
Given that alcohol destroys families, lives and livers are brewers and bar workers in the same league as other drug dealers?
Illegal drugs?
Legal drugs?
Prescription drugs?
Given that alcohol destroys families, lives and livers are brewers and bar workers in the same league as other drug dealers?
0
Comments
5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.
"Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & priests. And this is the eighth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness."
~ AN VIII.39
Wrong livelihood for lay followers
"A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in living beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."
~ AN V.177
So, twobitbob, as Right Livelihood those professions should be avoided.
But with that being said, I do not think that they are in the same league, however, because their intentions different. A brewer is a legal occupation in this country and they are attempting to earn an honest living, while drug dealers are purposefully attempting to make money by breaking the law.
Legal drugs that help to cure or alleviate a medical conditions are quite alright since they are for health reasons and not intoxication. The biggest exception to me would be powerful pain killers such as Vicodin. Those in my opinion are not medicines, but in fact intoxicants. They should only be used by those that 'need' them i.e. a person in serious physical pain. The Buddha himself allowed certain medicines of the time to be taken by his monks at anytime of the day when 'needed' (whereas they were only allowed to eat food before noon).
It is up tp the individual to know his or her own intentions for taking a drug and/or medicine. The Buddha merely laid down guidlines to follow and left the rest up to us. For example, if you were to take some Vicodin that you got from the doctors it might be wise to see, "why am I taking this?" Is the pain really that bad.....or do you just like how you 'feel' after taking one. That is the difference the Buddha was talking about. This pleasure, this intoxication affects your mindfulness. It clouds your perceptions about reality, as well as making you open to breaking the rest of the precepts.
In my practice I do not take illegal drugs, I try not to abuse the prescribe ones (I'll admit taking my Vicodin when I had my tooth pulled even though the pain was bareable), and I do not drink anymore( although, I believe that having only one drink is ok because it does not affect mindfulness). I saw how drugs and intoxicants had become a serious attachment for me - an addiction really. I do not want them to have such power over me ever again. I want to be free from dukkha, and they just cover up the symptoms that lead to Awakening.
That is what I make of it all at any rate. Hope it helps.
Jason
There have been people that have integrated alcohol into their lives for centuries without it destroying their families or making them take the nearest Exit into obscurity.
And... for a long time, illegal drugs weren't illegal and prescription drugs were just "medicines". I believe it's a persons make-up that defines if they are going to abuse drugs, alcohol, eating, relationships, their bodies, etc.
As other people have said here, I think it's with the intention that you engage in these activities is what matters. I have a glass of wine with my girlfriend at dinner. Don't really feel the need to get ripped - don't feel like destroying my family - don't feel like finding my friend at the bottom of a bottle, etc.
She likes red wine - you have a glass - that's it. Actually, I'm totally cool with having a grape soda with dinner .... or a root beer.
If you take medication so that you don't feel excrutiating pain after a major surgery - is that really bad? Is this lapse of a "clear mind" really any different than when you engage with a person at work that you don't like and don't practice "Right Speech"? Or you allow your mind to be cluttered with anger?
In this respect, I don't see much of a different between a mind being clouded with anger - or a mind being clouded with stimulates/depressants - both minds are clouded.
-bf
Sometimes, if there was a party or a celebration, we'd charge a person, their car keys for their third drink. Some Pubs now offer free soft drinks to the elected driver of a group.... heck, if they're staying off the juice for the 'good' of others, they deserve a pat on the back....!
So I think you can deal in alcohol, but you have to do it in a socially acceptable, responsible and wise manner. Illegal drugs for me are a no-no. Never tried them, never want to.
prescription drugs are used for the control and management of certain conditions. However, anything and everything is open to abuse, and even drugs that originally were intended for pain management or symptom alleviation could become addictive. But it's not always a conscious addiction....
I know of an elderly lady who was prescribed tranquilizers during her husbands illness, just to help her cope day to day.... she was relatively frail, and needed the support of her doctor to get her through this ordeal, so he prescribed some medication to buffer her from the stress & strain of watching her husband die....
After his death, she had to deal with the funeral and getting back on her feet, so she continued with the medication, on her doctor's advice. One day, she felt she'd had enough, and stopped taking the drugs. Her withdrawal symptoms were very severe and frightening for her. She experienced dizziness, nausea and other effects which led to her suffering a serious fall. When the doctor was called, and he discovered what she had done, he told her to take one tablet immediately, and instructed her on how to wean herself off them progressively. But her family was livid that this had not all been explained to her fully....
An example of involuntary addiction. In this case, the medic is to blame.... :sadc:
I would like to point out that pain is natural. It is a part of the body. Pain simply arises do to ripening conditions within the body. As much as we "dislike" pain, it is apart of the true nature of the body. Drugs just cover up this naturally arising phenomenon. Many meditation masters encourage us to explore our pains and try to see them for what they really are. They can be invaluable to the contemplation of the body.
Here is a downloadable book by Acariya Maha Boowa Nanasampanno in which he mentions his bout with pain in meditation: http://www.luangta.or.th/english/site/books/book10_arahatta/Arahattamagga.zip
Here is a Dhamm talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso dealing with the similiar topic of sickness and meditation: http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?cid=4&lid=320
Jason
However, I believe it takes a person with extraordinary mental discipline to be able to endure unimagineable pain. And every time I see the Burning Monk in BSF's posts, I marvel at Thich Quang Duc's personal discipline, and how his composure and position never flinched or altered throughout his 'ordeal'. That is Pain Management.
No offense, but I think we all know that pain is natural - but just because it's natural does not mean that is something we should endure for nature's sake. And while I don't advocate the use of strong pain meds for minor pain, I do believe that there are plenty of occasions when even strong pain meds are good idea.
For instance, my recent breast reduction. There was no way I could have just meditated through that and the following days - not to mention keep that up while getting on with my life. Would my suffering have in any way made me a better person? Improved my life? Helped others? What purpose would it have served?
You know, pain medication has been used for a long, long time in various countries. Just not the distilled versions we have turned into narcotics.
People used the bark of the willow tree for the same thing we use aspirin for - for centuries.
People have used to place the leaves of the coca plant (where we now get cocaine) in their shoes and sandles to help alleviate foot pain.
I think there may have been a lot of "medicines" that were used to treat problems and reduce pain that may have been acceptable in Buddha's time. Just not using these things (alcohol, opium, coca leave, hashish, marijuana, etc.) to lose touch with reality or cloud the mind.
But, since we'll never know and it can't be proved - it's just up for debate.
For me? I don't think I'll be able to meditate when they need to cut into me to take care of a surgical issue...
Gimme da drugs!
-bf
I did not say we should "never" take pain medications. I was refering more to the times when we have a simple headache, or footache, or a sore back.....those are the times we should take advantage of them and really study them, experience them, and just be aware of them.
I simply feel it is not necassary to cover up every little pain because "we" are "displeased". Insight is never gained from giving in to our cravings.
Jason
"Pain is natural": this is true. It is one of the inevitable consequences of birth. Understanding pain has occupied human beings for all time. The story of Eve's eating the fruit is generally interpreted (in Jewish interpretation) as a mythic account of why human childbirth is so much more difficult than that of other animals. This 'explanation' led the Catholic Church to forbid pain relief during childbirth!
An ability to bear, withstand or ignore pain can be useful or a hindrance. Undermanagement of extreme or chronic pain can result in psychiatric symptoms as well as handicapping the sufferer. The experience of crippling pain can also result in the softening of hardened hearts.
It seems to me that pain, like all the other aspects of the chain of co-arising, fom ignorance through to old age and death, are tools with which to work. If the tool becaomes too unwieldy, we may simply need help to use it profitably.
In clinical cases where the sensation of pain is lost, as for example in leprosy, the patient is at great risk of unnoticed injuries, resulting in the worst cases, in gangrene and loss of limbs.
There is not, IMHO, a single answer to the problem of pain, either its origin or its management. Each sufferer will answer it in a different way.
i used to have a friend who was a tennis coach who used to drink gallons of milk because of it's (extremely mild) opiate-like effects, to calm himself down. Substance abuse comes in some weird forms.
I can totally agree with that. I don't have a problem recognizing pain for what it is and living with it. In fact, since my car wreck, I end up doing that quite a bit. I get tired of taking things or, if nothing else, I don't have anything on my stomach and don't want to take anything.
I was just thinking that taking things like hydrocodone after invasive oral surgery or my breast reduction ... wait... that wasn't me... that was someone else.
Anyway, you get my point.
-bf
As for illegal drugs- never used them nor have ever had the desire to so I;m probably biased as I feel there is no need to use them.Quite obvoiously hard drugs are very dangerous to body and mind and should be not taken at all as for soft drugs it's a bit more complicated as you can certanly make the case that alcohol which is legal has far greater social cost in lives destroyed directly and indirectly.
It boils down to making sensible choices,, and exercising self control as to what you put in your body and for what purpose you are trying to accomplish by doing so.
In the old days the beasts, birds, fishes, insects, and plants could all talk, and they and the people lived together in peace and friendship. But as time went on the people increased so rapidly that their settlements spread over the whole earth, and the poor animals found themselves beginning to be cramped for room. This was bad enough, but to make it worse Man invented bows, knives, blowguns, spears, and hooks, and began to slaughter the larger animals, birds, and fishes for their flesh or their skins, while the smaller creatures, such as the frogs and worms, were crushed and trodden upon without thought, out of pure carelessness or contempt. So the animals resolved to consult upon measures for their common safety.
The Bears were the first to meet in council in their townhouse under Kuwâ'hï mountain, the "Mulberry place," and the old White Bear chief presided. After each in turn had complained of the way in which Man killed their friends, ate their flesh, and used their skins for his own purposes, it was decided to begin war at once against him. Some one asked what weapons Man used to destroy them. "Bows and arrows, of course, cried all the Bears in chorus. "And what are they made of?" was the next question.
"The bow of wood, and the string of our entrails," replied one of the Bears.
It was then proposed that they make a bow and some arrows and see if they, could not use the same weapons against Man himself. So one Bear got a nice piece of locust wood and another sacrificed himself for the good of the rest in order to furnish a piece of his entrails for the string. But when everything was ready and the first Bear stepped up to make the trial, it was found that in letting the arrow fly after drawing back the bow, his long claws caught the string and spoiled the shot. This was annoying, but some one suggested that they might trim his claws, which was accordingly done, and on a second trial it was found that the arrow went straight to the mark. But here the chief, the old White Bear, objected, saying it was necessary that they should have long claws in order to be able to climb trees. "One of us has already died to furnish the bowstring, and if we now cut off our claws we must all starve together. It is better to trust to the teeth and claws that nature gave us, for it is plain that man's weapons were not intended for us."
No one could think of any better plan, so the old chief dismissed the council and the Bears dispersed to the woods and thickets without having concerted any way to prevent the increase of the human race. Had the result of the council been otherwise, we should now be at war with the Bears, but as it is, the hunter does not even ask the Bear's pardon when he kills one.
The Deer next held a council under their chief, the Little Deer, and after some talk decided to send rheumatism to every hunter who should kill one of them unless he took care to ask their pardon for the offense. They sent notice of their decision to the nearest settlement of Indians and told them at the same time what to do when necessity forced them to kill one of the Deer tribe. Now, whenever the hunter shoots a Deer, the Little Deer, who is swift as the wind and can not be wounded, runs quickly up to the spot and, bending over the blood-stains, asks the spirit of the Deer if it has heard the prayer of the hunter for pardon. If the reply be "Yes," all is well, and the Little Deer goes on his way; but if the reply be "No," he follows on the trail of the hunter, guided by the drops of blood on the ground, until he arrives at his cabin in the settlement, when the Little Deer enters invisibly and strikes the hunter with rheumatism, so that he becomes at once a helpless cripple. No hunter who has regard for his health ever fails to ask pardon of the Deer for killing it, although some hunters who have not learned the prayer may try to turn aside the Little Deer from his pursuit by building a fire behind them in the trail.
Next came the Fishes and Reptiles, who had their own complaints against Man. They held their council together and determined to make their victims dream of snakes twining about them in slimy folds and blowing foul breath in their faces, or to make them dream of eating raw or decaying fish, so that they would lose appetite, sicken, and die. This is why people dream about snakes and fish.
Finally the Birds, Insects, and smaller animals came together for the same purpose, and the Grubworm was chief of the council. It was decided that each in turn should give an opinion, and then they would vote on the question as to whether or not Man was guilty. Seven votes should be enough to condemn him. One after another denounced Man's cruelty and injustice toward the other animals and voted in favor of his death. The Frog spoke first, saying: "We must do something to check the increase of the race, or people will become so numerous that we shall be crowded from off the earth. See how they have kicked me about because I'm ugly, as they say, until my back is covered with sores;" and here he showed the spots on his skin. Next came the Bird--no one remembers now which one it was--who condemned Man "because he burns my feet off," meaning the way in which the hunter barbecues birds by impaling them on a stick set over the fire, so that their feathers and tender feet are singed off. Others followed in the same strain. The Ground-squirrel alone ventured to say a good word for Man, who seldom hurt him because he was so small, but this made the others so angry that they fell upon the Ground-squirrel and tore him with their claws, and the stripes are on his back to this day.
They began then to devise and name so many new diseases, one after another, that had not their invention at last failed them, no one of the human race would have been able to survive. The Grubworm grew constantly more pleased as the name of each disease was called off, until at last they reached the end of the list, when some one proposed to make menstruation sometimes fatal to women. On this he rose-up in his place and cried: "Wadâñ'! [Thanks!] I'm glad some more of them will die, for they are getting so thick that they tread on me." The thought fairly made him shake with joy, so that he fell over backward and could not get on his feet again, but had to wriggle off on his back, as the Grub-worm has done ever since.
When the Plants, who were friendly to Man, heard what had been done by the animals, they determined to defeat the latter's evil designs. Each Tree, Shrub, and Herb, down even to the Grasses and Mosses, agreed to furnish a cure for some one of the diseases named, and each said: "I shall appear to help Man when he calls upon me in his need." Thus came medicine; and the plants, every one of which has its use if we only knew it, furnish the remedy to counteract the evil wrought by the revengeful animals. Even weeds were made for some good purpose, which we must find out for ourselves. When the doctor does not know what medicine to use for a sick man the spirit of the plant tells him.