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How does Buddhism
impact the dialog in this form?
I have observed that online discussion groups evolve into familiar patterns, and I wonder if I am clinging to my narrow perspective and missing the impact of Buddhism here.
To clarify, the standard archetypes seem well established here...there are:
-The casual dropins [people just dropping by and poking around]
-The seekers [people with genuine questions]
-Lurkers [invisible, but ever present]
-Tourettes Posters [people with no impulse control...they post when they have nothing to say. I sometimes think of them as attention seekers]
-Debaters [people who never let an opportunity to challenge pass]
-Experts [people who post to show how much they know]
-Claimholders [people who feel that this is their forum, and post consistently so that everybody knows it. They are often very dualistic...it's my way or the highway]
-Pedantists [people who can't abide the breaking of arbitrary rules]
-The Wise [people who post only when when what they say is an improvement on silence]
The more popular a forum is, the more apparent these archetypes become (in my opinion). In a lot of cases, this creates so much noise that "the wise" and "the seekers" cannot be heard over the roar.
I see real wisdom here, and I suspect that there might be less noise to filter out than usual. Is it wrong for me to expect more from a Buddhist forum? People are people wherever you go, but isn't the buddhist way less ego-centric?
I hope this makes sense. Thank you for your time.
I have observed that online discussion groups evolve into familiar patterns, and I wonder if I am clinging to my narrow perspective and missing the impact of Buddhism here.
To clarify, the standard archetypes seem well established here...there are:
-The casual dropins [people just dropping by and poking around]
-The seekers [people with genuine questions]
-Lurkers [invisible, but ever present]
-Tourettes Posters [people with no impulse control...they post when they have nothing to say. I sometimes think of them as attention seekers]
-Debaters [people who never let an opportunity to challenge pass]
-Experts [people who post to show how much they know]
-Claimholders [people who feel that this is their forum, and post consistently so that everybody knows it. They are often very dualistic...it's my way or the highway]
-Pedantists [people who can't abide the breaking of arbitrary rules]
-The Wise [people who post only when when what they say is an improvement on silence]
The more popular a forum is, the more apparent these archetypes become (in my opinion). In a lot of cases, this creates so much noise that "the wise" and "the seekers" cannot be heard over the roar.
I see real wisdom here, and I suspect that there might be less noise to filter out than usual. Is it wrong for me to expect more from a Buddhist forum? People are people wherever you go, but isn't the buddhist way less ego-centric?
I hope this makes sense. Thank you for your time.
0
Comments
Probably not "wrong", whatever that might mean.
But unrealistic. You've seen how it works here. You may see various shades of things you describe above. I think this is a pretty worthwhile forum, or I wouldn't read and post here.
If you're seeking, ask. If no one posts an answer that helps, leave. Don't worry about whether or not there are wise individuals to answer, for even the experts post wise words (though for different reasons).
Namaste
As you said, people are people. But at the same time, I've seen a lot of people here drastically change their approach and positions and grow in the time they've been here. Buddhism is a practice; we're not already all Awakened and free from ego-masturbation. Everyone jerks off now and then. ^__O
Yes, we practice Buddhism.
Yes, we are not enlightened.
Yes, we are less than perfect.
Why do you think we call it "practice"?
Who shall succeed in disentangling this tangle? ("tangle" being a term for the network of craving)
(That last paragraph to demonstrate that I know a little of the Visuddhi Magga, thus that I am a expert posting to show just how much I know.......)
I think "knowing ourselves" is part of practice, seeing the tangle, the ground.
Untangling it all, well.....
Wandering off now.
In order for Buddhism to be worth while, it has to have something to offer perfectly normal humans, with all their flaws. If Buddhism is only for people who meet some idealistic standard of behavior, then it isn't of much value.
I don't practice Pure Land, but I like Shinran's teaching about the salvation of the evil person.
Shane! Come back!
Supper's at seven-thirty. If you miss it, don't blame us if all the banoffee pie's gone.....
I am very sorry that you are all working so hard to confirm my fears...I was hoping that buddhism was better than this.
Do you expect us all to be already enlightened?
(I doubt if any enlightened ones are wasting time on the internet.)
Not sure what's pissin' ya off so much with the responses you've received, but you're acting very holier-than-thou. Relax.
:screwy:
Doppelganger! :eek2:
From what I have seen, there are many who view mostly-clearly the things being said, and people who respond mostly-clearly. For instance, the amount of judgement and categorization in your post is apparent, and the subsequent inappropriate labels and condemnation you cast are obvious. People have responded in various states of open-heartedness to your projected expectations and judgments of what you think Buddhists should be like.
If you wish to see beyond the archetypes you've laid out for us, you need to penetrate them yourself. Then you'll see you're needlessly disconnecting from people you now consider "un-buddhists" because they aren't what you consider to be perfect or ego-less.
Hope this helps.
With warmth,
Matt
I come here with no knowledge and a very limited understanding of Buddhism. I've only made a few posts, but if you read them, you will see that I have never claimed to have any expertise...just questions and confusion.
I see that labeling was a bad choice, and I apologize.
I can't apologize for being inquisitive.
So to get back to my question, within this very thread there is a substantial amount of sarcasm. To a completely inexperienced person like myself, that seems to directly contradict one of the steps in the eightfold path.
I'm also not seeing a lot of compassion. I'm not claiming to speak with compassion, just like I don't claim to be a buddhist. In fact, I can go as far as to say that I do sense hostility, which is the last thing I thought to expect in a buddhist community.
When I see a troll in a forum, I simply don't respond. There is nothing buddhist about that...it's just not an appropriate use of time in my opinion. There are responses in this very thread (from people who DO offer plenty of advice about buddhism) that were at best irrelevant, and could even be called sarcastic and caustic. Where is the wisdom of the buddha in that?
We are all entitled to our humanity and mistakes, but please remember that not everyone that comes here has a great understanding of buddhism and that the choices experienced users make often speak as clearly than the words that they use.
I do appreciate the thoughtful responses that people have made, and I am truly sorry about my choice of words and coarseness...they were not skillful. I also understand and appreciate that many of the comments I made could be directly applied back to myself in spades.
At this point I'm wondering...if I can be this disruptive to other people's practices with a badly worded poorly thought out question, how valuable is the practice? I grew up with belief systems that encouraged talking one way while living another, and they never worked for me.
Is there a Buddhist way out of this dilemna?
If you disrupt ones practice by a badly worded poorly thought out question, then it is the problem of said practioner themselves, not yours; contemplating ones shortcomings is unskillful and will get you no where. It is not a reflection on buddhism itself but more a reflection of where one may be in his/her practice. As others have mentioned, none of us are enlightened hence we will all make mistakes.
The buddhist way "out of this dilemma" is to understand that we are human and will not always act skillfully, and have compassion and understanding for that. Your perceptions and reactions are the only ones you are able to change. Use this as a practice for developing your own compassion towards others.
Now what would you learn if we were all kind, loving & forgiving towards you? Some kind of allegience to a religious cult?
Internet forum often has some kind of challenge.
We have shown you compassion by offering you a mirror.
That is a very harsh judgement. Personally, I do not consider anyone as a "troll". In fact, I am not really sure what the word means.
Brother. You sound like a fundamentalist. Lighten up!
Buddha encouraged people to help themselves. What do you expect from us? To clean up your mess like a parent cleans up the mess of their small children?
What "mistakes"???
Everyone here is being normal & ordinary.
Your words were par for the course; just ordinary & normal. Be at ease. Be light!
Indeed.
Internet forum is simply that. Internet forum.
Buddha taught mindfulness & wisdom at sense contact. One needs to control their own mind when seeing, reading, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, etc.
Kind regards. Have happiness.
:smilec:
Like everyone else.
The 8FP has a step in which we toss personality and a sense of humour out the window? Why?
This is just your perception. Buddhism teaches not to hold onto perceptions as objective reality. So you're trolling?
Some of the most experienced members can sometimes slip, because they are human, because they are still practicing...
Some of the most inexperienced members, some of the non-practicing Buddhists, can offer some of the wisest thoughts...
Do you really think yourself so significant and your OP so relevant that you've actually caused any disruption at all to absolutely anyone here? Seriously?
Mark,
I think this statement contains some of the challenges you're facing around these parts. When I look at the posts you've received, I don't see sarcasm or hostility. I see people who are being direct about who they are, who they feel "Buddhists are" in general and trying to help you see what might be happening.
I wonder if you have hostility already in your mind that you are painting these posts with? Is it possible for people to be direct, humble and loving without being apologetic?
If you insist that there are "caustic" posts or words, perhaps you could point them out and we could all look at them together and see it from multiple angles. I don't think there is anyone in here that isn't directly rooting for you and your freedom and happiness.
Sometimes we can run face first into an oak and think that the oak was being aggressive
With warmth,
Matt
Having read your responses, I am just confused.
For example, Matt has offered the sincere advice to examine my claim about caustic words, and Valtiel sincerely reminded me that the buddhist way is to let go. I see wisdom in both, but also a contradiction. I'm sure that either one of you could help me straighten that out, but this is starting to feel like a whole lot of work that I lack the skill for.
When I used the phrase "nothing buddhist" I meant to say that I was making no claim that it was buddhist, not that I understand what is buddhist. I am sorry for the fundamentalist slip there, but it was just a poor sequence of words.
I should have been more specific about my reference to the 8fold path, I was referring to right speech, and my (admittedly limited) understanding is that sarcasm is not really a part of right speech. Clearly, none of you saw that there was any sarcasm in any of the responses, so the point is moot.
It's also pretty clear that I introduced the aggressive tone. I do feel that is worthy of another apology, and I am sorry. When I started this, I wasn't thinking...I almost completed that thought, but it's complete there, isn't it?
Reading post after post and trying to gain some understanding just isn't working for me. I tend to accept things at face value too readily, and (obviously) make a lot of mistakes. I am also clearly bringing a lot of negativity to the table, and I struggle with perceiving humor though the internet.
When I was just reading here, I felt a kind of cautious optimism. Having engaged so unskillfully I no longer feel that optimism. I feel like I've been wasting my time and yours. (to that point, I did not intend to troll..I had the mistaken perception that some of you thought I was trolling, and the end result was that I was in fact trolling).
My sincere apologies to all of you.
It is my dilemma alone, and as much as I wish I could just let go, I've proven consistently that I lack the skill. Now, as I lay sprawled at the foot of the oak that I ran in to, I think it might be best for me to crawl off in a different direction.
Please do not let us discourage you because your points were valid.
Sometimes, some of us, are a little rough around the edges.
Often it is asked: "Which Buddhist school do you follow - Theravada, Mahayana, Tibetan, Zen?"
Often, we answer: "We follow the school of hard knocks; the school of dukkha; that is our teacher".
We all are pleased you are here and look forward to your contributions.
With metta & friendship
DD
:smilec:
Mark,
Both exist together without conflict. Being able to let go is a skill that is developed over time. I said that if you insist there are "caustic" responses (or in other words, cannot, by yourself, let go of the notion that people were being sarcastic or caustic) then I'm sure we'd be willing to help you see beyond the world you see. No one, from what I could tell, wants to "prove you wrong", but most here seem to wish to "help you unload those shoulders" if that makes any sense.
Most of us have plenty of room in our hearts for people, including markallen. You have made no offense, your skillfulness/unskillfulness does not make you less worthy to post, it makes you exactly like the rest of us.
Do you know how many countless times I have hit the oak? How many times I've sat and screamed at that oak until I was hoarse? Then laughed my self silly when I saw the oak just sat and smiled the whole damn time? At least a billion. Maybe even a billion and two.
With compassion,
Matt
I won't tell you off for judging and labelling other people, but I will say thank you for your list about the different types of posters. I think I could use your list on myself to check my motivation before I next post.
With Metta,
Guy
I've been there!
That's kind of the point. We all do sometimes. Then we're reminded, and so practice continues...
You've reminded us. I bet every honest person here sees themselves at times in many of the archetypes in your initial post.
You're examining your reactions. You have multiple times in this Thread. That you "lack the skill" seems an illogical conclusion, then...
Heh, darn... I guess that means even in my failures I am not unique.
What you do is up to you, but you are holding yourself up to an impossible standard. If we had to be skillful in order to participate in a Buddhist forum, this place would be deserted. At one time or another, we've all been judgmental, exhibited unwarranted hostility, acted hypocritically, etc. If you go back over the thread, you'll see that the message addressed to you most often was that we're not a bunch of saints. You don't have to be one either.
I keep talking about confusion, but I don't know how else to put it. Between this post and another that I have going here, I have expressed a lot in the last day or so.
It's odd...I've been reading here for a while, and I've been able to relax and meditate for several weeks with *relative* ease. But the minute that I chose to engage, I lost my peace.
I tried to sit earlier today and failed utterly. For years, preparing for meditation was like gearing up for battle for me. For several weeks, it's been more like an invitation to be nice to myself...that seems a little more appropriate and has been a real relief. Yesterday and today I'm back to total war mode.
It makes no sense. When I could go to the local sangha, I always left feeling great. It's out of my reach now (the sangha) so I thought I'd give this a shot. It has the complete opposite effect.
To know a tiny little sliver of peace and then lose it makes me wish that I had never known it at all.
This is my sickness, and why the buddha still resonates today, right? I really hope that I can wake up in the morning, sit down and let the misery float away. I sure can't tonight.
Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, and many others, would say it's not so much a matter of having the "misery float away" as "making friends with it", "treating it as a teacher", and allowing it to be there so you can "examine it mindfully to find out how it works".
His book: The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness
http://www.amazon.com/Joy-Living-Unlocking-Science-Happiness/dp/0307347311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276311529&sr=1-1