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Patriot Act
buddhafoot
Veteran
Patriot Act
I've seen a number of articles in national news, regional news and even local Pacific Northwest "rags" that have all been discussing this basic point:
With the aftermath of September 11 - the people of the United States basically gave away "freedom" and "rights" that our forefathers fought for.
Newbuddhist Herman Hesse started a thread here about "how the FBI could possibly be watching you" and guess what? The Patriot Act made it very easy for the FBI to do just that.
Many people in the US are starting to think that we let too many of our rights and liberties disappear when rushing legislation through to deal with the atrocity of September 11.
Here are some articles via the internet if I'm just not painting the right picture for you...
Patriot Act - PBS
Vanishing Democracy in the West
Slate/MSN
Usa Today
I've seen a number of articles in national news, regional news and even local Pacific Northwest "rags" that have all been discussing this basic point:
With the aftermath of September 11 - the people of the United States basically gave away "freedom" and "rights" that our forefathers fought for.
Newbuddhist Herman Hesse started a thread here about "how the FBI could possibly be watching you" and guess what? The Patriot Act made it very easy for the FBI to do just that.
Many people in the US are starting to think that we let too many of our rights and liberties disappear when rushing legislation through to deal with the atrocity of September 11.
Here are some articles via the internet if I'm just not painting the right picture for you...
Patriot Act - PBS
Vanishing Democracy in the West
Slate/MSN
Usa Today
0
Comments
If you want to see the articles related to this thread - you're just gonna have to go to our home page! That way, you can get access to the articles.
Sorry gang - I'm still trying to figure out how this thing handles "creating" articles...
-bf
I knew it!!!
And everybody said I was just a crazy conspiracy theory nut! Ha!!!
The truth is out there!!!
Viva la grouse!
This reminds me of the old vampire stories....they could only enter your home if you invited them in!!....this legislation has effectively given that permission to both our Goverments to not only enter our homes and places of work but also negate the requirement in many cases of applying to the courts for warrants, thereby necessitating the requirement to produce sufficient evidence. The idea of huge corporations ruling the world often portrayed in "Futuristic" films, is now reality.
Well done BF, very thought provoking and a little scary.....will have to invest in Laptop computer to use while hiding under the stairs :eek:
I could swear I remember some of the people who voted for it even admitting that they had not read the entire thing - which is probably true seeing that we already know they don't read everything they vote for. Apparently it would take too much time for them to actually do their jobs. But, oh no, they felt pressured to do something - and if they hadn't voted for it (and other such legislation) they'd be known as "the guy who voted against protecting the country" or "the woman who voted for the terrorists." You see, "the person who thought it was too soon to enact laws that could potentially harm our rights because we need to actually read the fine print and debate the possible consequences before we bring down the country in a way the terrorists never could" is just too long to put on the negative campaign ad. And even if they did, they'd just call the person a wuss, indecisive, flip-flopper, etc.
Alas, Bush said the terrorists attacked us because they hate our freedom. I guess his solution is to take away our freedoms so they aren't so jealous. Yep, that'll do it - just like letting his buddies the logging companies into our national forests to thin down the trees, thus preventing forest fires and save the forests.
Can you tell I really dislike the president here?
I couldn't help but laugh when I read this. Good point.
You also made a good point about "the mother that voted for terrorist" comment.
There were people that were making a fuss about this right after 9/11 and people were actually giving them labels like that because they thought the Patriot Act was removing too many of our liberties.
Isn't there an old saying about if we don't learn from history, something something doomed something something?
-bf
-- Hermann Goering , Nazi leader and Gestapo founder
Do you mean this quote?
George Santayana:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it
True.
Even though Communism is an ideology where "everyone is equal" in a sense and everyone is taken care of... I think one author summed Communism very succinctly: "All animals are equal. Some animals are just more equal than others."
There are a lot of good ideas out there - unfortunately, they don't mix well with humanity, greed, anger, jealousy, etc.
-bf
Yeah... that's the one. I was just trying to let everyone do a little bit of thinking on their own.
Looks like you got an A+ - Head of the class!
-bf
Personally, I am quite fond of Julian Barnes' version:
I don't suppose it's in your power to grant me one of those dubious university degrees....nothing fancy...Yale...Princeton...Harvard :thumbsup:
Good quotes Simon....I like this one
Gerda Lerner:
We can learn from history how past generations thought and acted, how they responded to the demands of their time and how they solved their problems. We can learn by analogy, not by example, for our circumstances will always be different than theirs were. The main thing history can teach us is that human actions have consequences and that certain choices, once made, cannot be undone. They foreclose the possibility of making other choices and thus they determine future events.
-bf
Cheers!
I am going to frame it and put it up in my toilet :doh:... sorry erm......office :wow:
By the way is that the same school, that if you drop your lunch money....you just leave it :-/
By the way, am I the old man, goat, horned devil, or the serpent at the bottom :hair:
Thum of uth will thtill bend over to pick up our change ... or the thoap.
Was there an oldman, goat, horned devil thing at the bottom? I don't remember it.
But YOU'RE old enough to remember this gem!
http://www.danzfamily.com/videos/blogvideos/vikingkittens.swf
-bf
I guess I'm going to have to learn to read again.
Your avatar reminds me of the old man at the top of the mountain holding the lantern.
Sorry I'm so thick.
-bf
For those who are convinced we have totally lost the plot, if you look on the inside cover of the Led Zeppelin album IV and hold it up to a mirror, the real image added to the reflection depicts a hornéd devil, and at the bottom, a serpent..... and you all thought I was totally uncool!
psssst! everyone! let's just humor her...
Oh yes!, Fede - we all think you're really cool since you know all about that Led Zeppelin album!
-bf
nudge, nudge, wink, wink, knowwhatImean? say no more....say no more!
-bf
To read only one viewpoint is to choose to be a blind follower.
As a government employee I was concerned with how far the Patriot Act would intrude on individual liberties. I work on the local level but I frequently work with federal agencies such as the FBI and the DEA. I can honestly say I have not seen or heard of a single abuse of the Patriot Act powers firsthand.
The only conclusion I can come up with is that the leftist media has slanted and spun the facts to fit their political goals.
You make a good point. Researching things is the best way to find the truth.
But, I believe making statements like "...are all sponsored by liberal organizations that slant everything..." is no different than the few links provided in this thread. Granted I should have posted more links about the "good" of the Patriot Act - but I thought we knew what those points were. After all, the Act was passed to allow the government to have more liberties when fighting terrorism.
Also, when people do wrong - the usually don't write it up in a report and publish it. It's usually hidden because jobs, careers, etc. are on the line.
And, like you said, maybe there hasn't been an abuse of the Patriot Act. But the concern isn't that the Patriot Act has been abused, it's that the scope of power it contains and the potential for abuse.
Just like Nuclear Power. It's not that there has been an accidental bombing of another country with nuclear bombs it's that the "potential" for it exists. That's what scares everyone. We've had nuclear bombs for decades without a nuclear war - but it doesn't remove the scary thought of it happening.
Just like with this Act - it may not happen during Bush's term. Maybe not happen for a couple of terms - but it allows for it to happen in the future.
Make sense? Or am I just babbling?
-bf
We need to be aware of potential risk as much, in drafting legislation, as of actual action. We may put a fox in our henhouse or a paedophile in our classroom with no actual damage, at first!
First, Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for the sake of some temporary security deserve neither- Benjamin Franklin
Franklin was saying that as a society founded upon the idea of liberty and justice for all, we the people are responsible for our own safety, hence We have things like the 2nd Amendment: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
For those that are pro gun control, remember that Mark Twain once said that an armed society is a polite society.
Now, as a Buddhist, I agree that violence isn't always the best answer, but sometimes forces in this world necessitate violence for the sake of defense. "Karate ni sente nashi", there is no first strike in Karate, which I believe is attributed to Gichin Funakoshi. I have trained not to strike first, but strike last and still be standing when it's over.
But, that being said, I also don't want to lose my right to bear arms. Even though I don't bear arms or have any (weapons that is... if I didn't have any arms, I wouldn't be able to type... except with my nose..) I don't want the government saying that now I don't have this right anymore.
I know that there are countries out there who are appalled at the United States choice to make owning guns legal. They talk about the crime and everything else that happens in the US.
But, I think they forget that in their own countries - even though weapons are against the law - it doesn't keep the bad people from getting and using them on their own countrymen.
It's also my experience that karate does have first strikes. I've seen it happen. Now, aikido might not have first strikes because, for the most part, all of it's attacks are counter-attacks using the a persons momentum against them. But I guess that is neither here nor there.
-bf
Good point Bushinoki, however I like BF also have known many trained martial Artists, who hit first and ask questions later, alas they are not disciplined. Any weapon be they hands, feet or guns require those in possession to use them in defence and not attack!
First, Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for the sake of some temporary security deserve neither- Benjamin Franklin
Wise words indeed, however did he forsee terrorists flying planes into the WTC.....Global threats are the modern scourge.
I don't suggest for one moment that I have the perfect solution......not being glib....just follow the middle way.
The middle course is the proper course. Those civilizations that desired peace and worked for it but were ready and able to go to war count as some of the greatest societies to exist, leaving behind traces of cultural art and technology that have lasted hundreds of years. Even the Romans, who were constantly at war and conquering, had internal peace for the majority of the Empire's duration, which allowed for the greatest technological advancement of It's time.
Practitioners of Karate may hit first, but if they are truly using Karate, then the threat to themselves is understood, and so the first physical strike may not be the "first strike". A threatening demeanor, especially in an atmosphere where violence is known to occur, is as much a strike as someone actually trying to punch.
Take the Roman Empire. For me, it represents all that is wrong with civilisation. Its greed for resources led it to enslave and pillage the native peoples of the rest of Europe. They engaged in the systematic genocide of the Carthaginians. They set a pattern for nationalism that is based on citizenship that has been repeated from Mont Segur through Wounded Knee and Amritsar to Fallujah. It was a culture based entirely on theft and technology. We are still experiencing the storm surge following its centuries-long fall.
From another point of view, Roma brought civilisation and peace to a barbaric world. Before the legions, we are led to believe, there was anarchy and chaos. BS!
"Cum ad cenandum discubuimus, alius sputa deterget, alius reliquias temulentorum [toro] subditus colligit."
"When we recline at a banquet, one [slave] wipes up the spittle; another, situated beneath [the table], collects the leavings of the drunks."
Sounds like some places I have worked at in my time.
We as humans (being mammals) try to implement the same order and structure in our lives and communities. Unfortunately, it's not always the best animal that gets the position of Top Dog.....
http://www.thenagain.info/WebChron//Mediterranean/MAurelius.html
http://www.thenagain.info/WebChron//Mediterranean/MAurelius.html
Also one of the greatest Films of all time, discusses at length, Just 'what the Romans did for us'.... I refer of course to the classic
"Life of Brian".....
Ajani...
I know - that's why I posted it
-bf
Batman...
You are right. I think my links must have been a little one sided - which wasn't my intention. I apologize if I affronted you.
Deceit in any circumstance is wrong. Whether in distorting the truth or hiding it.
-bf
What is it for, then?
http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
I think this my help everyone truly understand.
I honestly believe that the best way to secure peace for ourselves is to be willing and able to fight for ourselves. I could argue statistics with people all day, but having reviewed the statistics of the Federal DOJ several times, I tend to agree that being a society of strong individuals is to be a peaceful society. My case in point would be to look at states such as Texas and Washington, both of which have "shall issue" laws regarding concealed carry permits. They have much lower rates of forced entries into private residences and armed robberies of businesses. Who wants to get shot over a few hundred dollars.
I know - I live in Washington! We have a lot of MS victims for some odd reason - and Hanford "downwinder" victims, but that's about it!
-bf
You omit the genocidal action of the BIA and the deliberate disarming of the Ndn Nations. Your perspective is entirely EuroUSian-centric. As an outsider, I find it most worrying that the near-extinction of a whole series of nations can be airbrushed out in order to create a heroic myth.
It was fore told that the White Man would come and consume the Tsu-ga-li ( people). But what hurts the most is that they took our traditions and ceremonies and outlawed them for all eternity. Even now we can not do a ghost dance ( A-s-gi-na Tsa-la-tsi-s-gi) or pass a talking feather. They even tried to take our Language and still our souls. But no one can truly still a soul. We were declared Heathens and Savages, and beaten into submission or killed by the people who ran the corrupt BIA ( Bureau of Indian Affairs).
But one fact remains, We are still here. And we are practicing our ceremonies and traditions again.
Facts On Gun Deaths In The USA
The Americans value their constitution and the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms. Here is the price that ordinary Americans are paying for the privilege
- 8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns
- since John F. Kennedy was assassinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century
- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.
- Murder rates in LA, NY and Chicago were approaching the highest in the world (30 per 100,000) until moves were made in late 20th century to restrict access to guns to teenagers. (The NRA wants these moves reversed)
If Osama bin Laden had had more sense, instead of launching a terrorist attack, he would simply have provided financial backing to the NRA.
It is all very well to say that you have reviewed the Statistics several times, the fact that this post seems to attract so much attention means that I thought I had better update it and support it with some hard facts.
I believe that the second Amendment is anachronistic belonging to the long-gone days of the frontier. This blight is now pervading our Towns and Cities in the UK!!
Not to object to the information you've provided - but it all comes down to a matter of opinion. As I've stated before - I don't like guns. I don't want them around me and I'm uncomfortable with them - but I still don't want my government thinking they can take that right away from me.
I mean, you're in Europe. Europeans have long been used to the monarchy removing any and all abilities of the working class to protect themselves. You have to remember that the "right to bear arms" in the U.S. wasn't due to the desire to create a "Flamboyant Western Culture" for the rest of the world to gawk at. It was created because of the tyrantist rule of King of England, the ability to arrest someone without a trial, removing a citizens ability to protect themselves, etc., etc., etc.
I think a lot of people in the US are just as appalled at Europe being content not having the right to bear arms as people in Europe are appalled at people in the US bearing arms.
It's just cultural thing that we, as Americans, have become used to.
You may find it objectionable - but it isn't wrong.
Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."
Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and 1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. "The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic," says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. "Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted
England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997
"You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the United States," stated the Reuters news agency in summarizing the study. "The rate of robbery is now 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double America's."
The murder rate in the United States is reportedly higher than in England, but according to the DOJ study, "the difference between the [murder rates in the] two countries has narrowed over the past 16 years."
I don't know how true this information is - because you can dig up just about anything you want to on the internet, but I'm sure that most countries have their difficulty with "bad people owning guns" while the typical citizen doesn't.
-bf