Magic

Rigpa-iyeshes

I got the idea to make this thread because in the Emptiness thread one member said, "You think there is magic in the Dharma, I do not". I wonder what people feel about this issue. I put forward three reasons for saying that there is magic in the Dharma: one doctrinal, one scriptural and one logical.

1. In the 37 bodhyangas (Pali: bojjhangas), there are included the 4 bases of rddhi (Pali: iddhi), or magic. Since the 37 bodhyangas are an integral part of the path, I say that there is magic in the Dharma.

2. In the scriptures of both the Great Vehicle and of the Pali, there are extensive episodes of the Buddha displaying magic deeds; there are also bodhisattvas and other beings who possess magic. Therefore the scriptures of the Dharma contain magic.

3. The doctrine of emptiness goes beyond the realm of conceptuality. Since even magic is contained with the realm of conceptuality, and the Dharma goes beyond concepts, then it cannot be the case that the Dharma transcends concepts but leaves some of them out at the same time. So, magic must be included in the Dharma.

I hope people will want to share some thoughts on this issue.

aMatt

Magic? What's magic?

SherabDorje

Yes, I believe that to proceed with this discussion we would need a very specific and workable definition of magic.

NamelessRiver

federica

Oh good grief.....:rolleyes:

I can see that this is all going to end in tears.

Or laughter.

Or both............

Ok, then Rig.
Define 'Magic'..... then we can go on.

Javelin

On the basis that you mean 'supernatural'.....

We must speak of which Dharma you mean. There are the Dharmas of the various schools/traditions, the original Dhamma-Vinaya of the Buddha, and the actual Dharma that is pointed toward.

All I can say is that there appears to be no magic, nothing supernatural, about the Dharma that is pointed toward.....the suchness of life. It's rather pointless to answer any other way, or to speculate.

Namaste

Deshy

DN 11

RichardH

There is magic for magical minds. There is no magic for non-magical minds.

Simonthepilgrim

One of the early writers about Tibetan Buddhism, Alexandra David-Néel, wrote a wonderful account of her meetings with mystics and magicians Tibet in the early part of the last century. Whilst describing apparent 'magic' phenomena, she remained skeptical. This was not simply an 'outsider's' view as she met the Great Thirteenth on a couple of occasions, spent time in retreat and has a close tulku friend/lover.

The book is a great read as is her account of her Tibetan travels at a time when few Westerners had managed to visit, let alone live in Tibet.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Magic-Mystery-Tibet-Alexandra-David-Neel/dp/0285637924/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277469663&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/My-Journey-Lhasa-Succeeded-Forbidden/dp/0060596554/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277469666&sr=8-2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_David-N%C3%A9el

dennis60

The big Problem or Danger with Magic is not that it can cause harm or cause Danger to us, but that it can easily become a Distraction on our spiritual Path when we misunderstand its real Meaning turning into Attachment. In his Book “what the Buddha Taught” describes the most ven. Dr. Walpola Rahula those Dangers, Distractions and Attachments in the following Way: “Most people are interested in Meditation or Yoga in order to gain some Spiritual or Mystic Powers like the ‘third Eye’, which others do not posses. There was some time ago a Buddhist Nun in India who was trying to develop a Power to see through her Ears, while she was still in the Possession of the ‘Power’ of perfect Eye-Sight! This kind of Idea is nothing but ‘Spiritual Perversion’. It is always a question of desire, ‘thirst’ for power”. In other Words: it’s pure Attachment. It can be Attachment, desire, thirst or Greed for Power; Attachment to the Ego; Attachment to Possession; Attachment to Conceit and many more.Such Ideas are growing more and dwelling in the Tradition of the New Age and have nothing to do with the authentic Buddhist Teachings. On the other Side it is not to deny that Different Occurrences and Phenomena may manifest during Meditation that can be described as “Supernatural”. Among them we may find Manifestation of different Visions, Geometrical Manifestations, Texts and Voices appearing during Meditation, different Visions of dazzling Lights and Colors, Movements of Mind, Psychological Phenomena of Mind like being partial awake and partial a sleep, strong Energies, unusual Feelings and Sensation of Body and etc. We must be aware in such Case that even if such experiences might be a Sign of growing Concentration - SAMADHI and Expression of unconscious Levels, all of them are nothing but Fabrication of our Mind – thus they should not be taken to much for seriously. We should treat those Phenomena as each other Phenomenon that may occur during Meditation, for example by using mental Labeling of “Seeing, Seeing” and then escorting Awareness Back to the main Focus of Meditation.

Tasslehoff

"Omne ignotum pro magnifico", Latin meaning everything unknown is taken to be grand/wonderous (magical).

Another closely-related saying is "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", by Arthur C. Clarke (though this can apply for non-technology also).<o></o>

Dazzle

.




.

Deshy

Susima sutta where Susima the wanderer asked these questions from the enlightened disciples of the Buddha

...do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?"

"No, friend."


...do you hear — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far?"


"No, friend."


...do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"


"No, friend."

Deshy

double post

thickpaper

SherabDorje wrote: »

Yes, I believe that to proceed with this discussion we would need a very specific and workable definition of magic.

May I suggest as a useful definition: A phenomenon is Majical if it appears to contradict common sense and/or some generally accepted set of governing principles.

For example, If the Buddha really did levitate while radiating a brilliant white light from his forehead then this would be magical because it goes against the way we normally expect things to work, the way we can project the way things work and the principles that successfully explain and predict the way things work.

Is that a good definition to use in the discussion?

If not, do suggest an alternative:)

namaste

DairyLama

thickpaper wrote: »

May I suggest as a useful definition: A phenomenon is Majical if it appears to contradict common sense and/or some generally accepted set of governing principles.

Magic suggests to me something that is far outside our normal experience and something that we can't explain in the usual ways.

P

DairyLama

Rig pa'i ye shes wrote: »

2. In the scriptures of both the Great Vehicle and of the Pali, there are extensive episodes of the Buddha displaying magic deeds; there are also bodhisattvas and other beings who possess magic. Therefore the scriptures of the Dharma contain magic.

Is the purpose of practising dharma to do magic?

P

DairyLama

MadeInChina wrote: »

And I am going to try Zhen De Shou fat loss capsule later, and hopefully I can lose some more weight.

We're not impressed with your magic potions.

P

thickpaper

porpoise wrote: »

We're not impressed with your magic potions.

P

When I read the suttas I get the impression the Buddha was very much against the antecedent Bramen/Hindu esotericism and majic. But I am aware that when any of us read the suttas we do so from the plateau of our own preconceptions.

Doubt your doubts.

DairyLama

thickpaper wrote: »

Doubt your doubts.

I'm too busy doubting my opinions.;)

P

thickpaper

porpoise wrote: »

I'm too busy doubting my opinions.;)

P

Opinions are one of the few things that can't be doubted.

Though most opinions are wrong to most people.

FoibleFull

Richard H wrote: »

There is magic for magical minds. There is no magic for non-magical minds.

Yes, that's it.

treederwright

I studied occultism and theurgy for about 3 years before buddhism then tibetian buddhism. My major confusion with magic is now that to have an expereince of theurgy you have to have ideas in lots of permance immutibility and unity. My qualm is this if its possible to do "magic" then the space in which "magic" is done would have to be empty, so i think madhyamaka holds a very high metaphysical view, that is pertinent to one's progress.

caz

Magic ? Such is a very ordinary way of looking at things !
Those who have gained the ability to manifest such things are beings who are well trained in the Siddhis of concentration...Magic is a very ordinary way of looking at such things.
In times past such demonstrations where used in order that other would develop faith in the Dharma not as cheap tricks to train in but proof of the levels attained by skilled meditators and so on.