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Madhyamaka Thread
RichardH
Veteran
This thread is an invitation to those who want to discuss the Madhyamaka view on Madhyamaka terms. If this view is not what you want to discuss, then this thread aint your thing.
So a question for any Madhyamaka folk out there....
If form is not other than Emptiness, and concept is form, that means concept is not other than Emptiness. If this is so, how do the conceptual skillfull means of Madhyamaka lead to Buddhahood?
Thank you.
So a question for any Madhyamaka folk out there....
If form is not other than Emptiness, and concept is form, that means concept is not other than Emptiness. If this is so, how do the conceptual skillfull means of Madhyamaka lead to Buddhahood?
Thank you.
0
Comments
Through the two accumulations the causes and conditions for Buddhahood are achieved by the practitioner.
Are you referring to MMK 24:18, 19?
I am familiar with Madhyamaka, but if there is one online source we could all go to for the sake of reference in this discussion, I think that would help keep the discussion focused. There may be some references to Madhyamaka that may be more clear or concise than others, and knowing what you're looking at would be helpful.
Thanks.
For instance emptiness/form. or perhaps you could say self-luminous reality is realized in Zen practice, but there seems to be degrees of realization and integration with daily life. This is why I mentioned that concepts are not other than emptiness. Is a recognition of this pertinent? and does it have bearing on how Madyamaka is said to achieve a final and complete integration? In other word do the conceptual skillful means themselves embody Buddhahood?
This may be waaay off on a tangent and I don't mind being told so, but it may not be.
I really like the idea- I just don't know how much I'll be able to participate. And I don't think it's off base- the Madhyamaka view on emptiness is an important part of Buddhism that I think doesn't get enough emphasis.
Anyway ...if your not Rig, that sounds like an interesting discussion.
I am not very knowledgeable in Madhyamaka; I've only read some basic Nagarjuna and Conze's translation of the Heart Sutra, but I think I can answer your question.
Yes, concepts are empty and the best exemplification for this is perhaps given by mathematics. Mathematical statements are formalised to the degree were they become completely independent (empty) of semantics. Although one could argue that the logical structure of mathematical sentences contains some sort of essence, this structure is usually reducible to simpler rules of inference which are themselves empty.
So why can concepts be employed the purpose of transcending emptiness if they are themselves empty? It's a bit like the question: why does a million metric tons steel-built freighter ship swim? In case of the ship, it is not the million tons of steel, but the space surrounded by the steel, which keeps the vessel afloat. It's the same with concepts. Not the concepts themselves, but the space between the lines, the quality that is created in the mind of the listener, gets the job done.
Cheers, Thomas
My knowledge is pretty limited, so bear with me. Do Tibetan Buddhists study both the madhyamaka prasangika and madhyamaka svatantrika schools and regard the prasangika view as best? I think all the books I've read for far were based on the prasangika view.
so "best" relates to which school refutes inherent existence without the extreme of nihlism,more thoroughly . The refutations have to be "valid" which is what establishes a thesis that both can agree to debate upon. but the pransangikas don't proupound the thesis, just refute them. Like judo... they use the force of the wrong view to undo it . i love madhyamaka.
Madhyamaka is skilfull when in conjunction with tantric practise, Meditation on a tantric deity replaces the ordinary self, From which all delusions stem from with emptiness in form of a tantric deity, By using this method we directly cut tricky delusions such as ordinary appearances and swiftly make our way to the Buddha grounds swiftly overcoming delusion by dealing with the root cause.
By having a correct view of emptiness, It allows swift progression toward enlightenment
By directly applying the teachings on emptiness into our meditation upon the Non Dual profoundity and clarity things become far easier then having a view of emptiness that is more akin to nothingness for example.
Its does as such. By meditating upon ones deity this cease the ordinary view from which delusion stems, By our ordinary mind interacting with ordinary things we generate ordinary conceptions which in turn give rise to the ordinary self and from which stems our Delusions, Principly Self grasping is the cause of all our problems however in Tantra it is futher added that Ordinary appearance is the cause of such, By Meditating upon a Deity and engaging in concentration of disolving ones ordinary self into emptiness and then appearing in ones deities pureland as said deity we defeat the enemy of ordinary appearance which gives rise to all of our delusions principly Self grasping futher more self grasping is defeated and eliminated by Self Generating as the Deity by realizing that the self we are generating as the Deity is non other then emptiness, In other words dream like appearance...anywho Tantra is renowned as the quick path because using this method is a quick way to eliminate our root causes of problems and bring into daily life the meditations and pure conceptions we have generated Therefore we quickly acheive enlightenment because everymoment of our being from then on is recognised as being pure and that of said deity ( In secret obviously ) Through extreme concentration our minds merge and ordinary conceptions cease and we acheive the Pureland in this very life there by ending samsara and all of our suffering.
I hope what i have written makes sense.
It differs from other methods because it is renowndly quicker in that it gives you a basis to work from, as generating a conception of emptiness ordinarily can be difficult and to be able to maintain that recognition of emptiness in daily life without transforming it into something that does not appear to be contradictory can be extremly confusing, Not to mention that it is also said that once Emptiness is realized there are still subtle imprints of delusion upon consciousness, Bodhisattvas for example have realized emptiness and liberated themselves from suffering, But because of subtle obstructions remaining in their minds they are not Buddhas yet, The method most commonly used such as in zen is to continously meditate upon emptiness in this way and eventually they attain high states which is brilliant, However it can take many aeons to accomplish Full enlightenment using this method, Therefore Buddha Vajradhara whom was non other then Shakyamuni appearing in this form taught it to accomplish the Buddha grounds within one life, It is a very rare method and very profound to grasp and understand.
Cool.
By eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich...with a glass of orange juice.
hardy har har har.:buck:
Why are you laughing?? I'm trying to be serious here! Seriously. Because, form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Madhyamaka is the doctrine of emptiness, yes?
Which is itself, the doctrine of emptiness.
In Zen ( it varies) the practice is a bright clear unobstructed mind. By resting in this mind, there is over time a natural clarification. This clarification may be different for different people depending on their karma. Thats my take anyway.
and Then once this is accomplished we gain the tools to help others
Of course that state is the the ultimate Being of a Buddha a complete mixing with emptiness, an omniscient state of mind perceiving all phenomena clearly, This is known as the truth body of a Buddha, From this they eminate other bodies in order to help others traped in samsara ( I should mention at this point that the There is no distinction between a Buddhas body and mind ) The next body they possess is the enjoyment body, In deity meditation this is the Body we meditate upon while at the same time realizing it is non other then emptiness we are also meditating upon the ultimate truth Body a Buddha possess, In this way as explained in the Perfection of wisdom Sutra " Form is emptiness, Emptiness is form..."
From these principle bodies They eminate Countless emination bodies to benifit sentient beings appearing in whatever from needed to help others... These may sound fanstical But do remember in emptiness it is all possible.
When reading commentaries and the MMK i was told that meditating upon it gives more of a realization. What is the way to meditate on the MMK. Please give source commentaries or treatises to help.
Thank You.
Peace.
Actually Treederwright i think the system was developed and perfected in India the Tibetans just inherated the system of thought once it crossed the boundries.
Didn't the tibetians develop the two subschools of madhyamaka?
Because Tsongkhapa championed Chandrakirti's Pransanga.
According to Tsongkhapa, you must distinguish between not thinking about true existence (which is the withdrawal from conceptual thinking some meditation techniques propose) and knowing the lack of true existence.
Also, from the King of Concentration Sutra:
If you analytically discern the lack of self in phenomena and if you cultivate that very analysis in meditation, this will cause the result, attainment of nirvana; there is no peace through any other means.
It is not that they think it is not possible to be free of conceptual thinking during meditation. They say it is possible, but insufficient for liberation. So, in that sense, it is "more than just a conceptual version of a whack from a Zen master", because analysis here is fundamental.
Therefore zen's aim is toward ultimate reality. but its method is that of non-conceptual awareness with the strict restriction of concepts or discursive mind at all. This Tsongkhapa calles a "devolution" not "evolution" because it removes the mind that is essential to enlightenment, and leaves the practitioner no higher than an animal in the relms of existence.
It discusses ontology presupposing that the 4 ways something can exist are in fact the only way they can exist, then he says they are not from a cause inherently seperate from the effect . he calls this "condition". This is truely awesome because once you accept the statements on "conditions" you infer that the conclusion is true which is the way nagarjuna states the dedication. What a read!
Enlightened minds never decay
Samsara arises from The causes of Samsaric aggregates, This falls within DO. When one is released what is there to say of a mind that is unbound by Samsara certainly it is not subject to Death and rebirth.
A mind that is Liberated from Samsara doesnt return to the state of Ignorance/Samsara.
How is it we dont realize this mind ? Simple we are lazy and dont put the effort into attaining Liberation and enlightenment if we actually made an effort we could do it in this single life.
I cant say...I dont have the ability to know others minds.
Ive meet many people who possess a wonderful presence and very extensive wisdom if this is any indication that there are still people who realize these precious teachings
Your not making yourself very clear friend ?
Yes we can
Practise and perseverance, With effort all our goals will be accomplished, If we have the intention to set out on a journey we will eventually reach our destination.