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Difficulty meditating but I have done it by mistake!
Just watched the google video of Jon Kabat-Zinn and I need a little help.
I had 2 experiences before even knowing what meditation or Buddhism was:
I first discovered being when I had a near death experience at 15 it felt peaceful, serene and powerful, it was feeling but also a voice that I felt then more strongly than I have ever since. However I survived the incident to tell the tale!
I also by discovered it again by mistake when I was 17 and going through a nightmare in life. These problems made me have real issues in many areas of my life ranging from depression to low self-esteem. One day the suffering got so much that I just seemed to accept the thoughts in my head, I agreed with all the negativity whether from the past, thoughts about myself and the future, I said ok it is what it is so what am I going to do now = just relax and enjoy now the thoughts though repetitive began dissolving. Eventually I felt at peace and serene.
That night I had a vivid dream while being half awake about a beautiful girl, literally the girl of my dreams whom I had never met, I could see her exactly see what she looked like and I could tell what her character was like. I took no notice of the dream in the morning but later received a phone call from a friend that we were going out that night with a load of girls. The chatter box negative mind starting coming in again that "I would never get a girlfriend" that "I was useless with women" that "I was ugly" that "girls don't like me" etc. etc. the list goes on. Again I had had enough I agreed with the thoughts and said ok what am I going to do now, I'm going to go out and enjoy myself. Any anxious thoughts about the future I said ok agreed with it, agreed that the worst outcome would occur that "yes no girls fancy me" etc. I then said so what? Why don't I just enjoy the night? I soon felt again at peace, serene and powerful, these thoughts slowly had less and less power over me and were less invasive and by the evening I was in a state of total relaxation and peace.
I walked into the restaurant to meet my friends and the girls and to my amazement across the table she was sitting there, the girl of my dreams the girl I dreamed of the night before! It struck me as huge coincidence! I could feel the negative voice trying to rise up telling me she could never like me but I quickly agreed with it and dispensed with it "I said ok there is no way she could like me, so why don't I enjoy now enjoy the night, be a gentlemen and imagine and treat her as if she was my girlfriend" another thought came through which was intuition it said "Love is unconditional". I can only say I had one of the most amazing nights of my life not just because of the girl but the peace I felt with other people. Intuition told me to take her by the arm when we were going to a bar near by, and we talked for a long time that night I was totally present, selfless and aware. I made no moves on her just enjoyed her company that night. The next day I was also peaceful and serene and sometimes thinking of the girl I had met the night before. But again the nightmare crisis in my family swallowed me up, I had to leave London, due to events I soon lost contact with my being state after that and I never really intellectually understood what occured to me on those 3 days until recently. My friend later told me that the girl of my dreams was trying to get in touch with me for weeks she was crazy about me, but as I had already left London and later the UK it ended there.
The reason for telling you the story above is this.
Having recently discovered Buddhism and meditation, I cannot seem to meditate in the conventional way taught by any buddhists or other people. I had read several books and watched several videos (Eckhart Tolle Power of Now is the most recent one). If I try to meditate my heart begins to race, if I try to focus on awareness or bring conscious light to emotion or thoughts it just intensifies them and I become dragged into them. Dealing with the past is easy, it is the past and it is done, over, fullstop, the future anxieties are more difficult to take care of.
I seem to only be able to begin to reach this peacful state when I talk to my incoming thoughts in a compassionate way, so for example with the voice and emotion of future anxiety come in I say yes ok what if the worst outcome will occur what will I do right now? I accept the worst outcome I say ok it will be and then I ask myself what will I do now. Just enjoy the moment, relax. It then dissolves.
Effectively I surrender to the negativity, I agree with it or even surpass it with even more negative outcomes and it then starts to lose its power. I say ok what if this does happen, so what, what now?
Is this wrong? It feels right for me? It feels like release. Eventually if I can keep it up, the negative thoughts and emotions lose their power, I come into the now and become relaxed and peaceful , it is then that I can ask myself what will I do now or decide just to relax. I know if I can keep going doing this (although I have not done so yet) I know I can reach the enlightened state I have done twice before.
My only worry is that when I agree with these thoughts although they no longer hurt me anymore does agreeing with them prophecy my future? Testament to this is the fact to date I still have had 0 girls in my life and I am significantly older and would have liked to have shared some love with someone. I did meet the girl of my dreams again but she was no longer the same girl I met before, I was also in the throws of depression and I behaved like a fool, I suppose that maybe agreeing with the negative voice prophecied my future?
If anyone has any pointers I would appreciate it.
I had 2 experiences before even knowing what meditation or Buddhism was:
I first discovered being when I had a near death experience at 15 it felt peaceful, serene and powerful, it was feeling but also a voice that I felt then more strongly than I have ever since. However I survived the incident to tell the tale!
I also by discovered it again by mistake when I was 17 and going through a nightmare in life. These problems made me have real issues in many areas of my life ranging from depression to low self-esteem. One day the suffering got so much that I just seemed to accept the thoughts in my head, I agreed with all the negativity whether from the past, thoughts about myself and the future, I said ok it is what it is so what am I going to do now = just relax and enjoy now the thoughts though repetitive began dissolving. Eventually I felt at peace and serene.
That night I had a vivid dream while being half awake about a beautiful girl, literally the girl of my dreams whom I had never met, I could see her exactly see what she looked like and I could tell what her character was like. I took no notice of the dream in the morning but later received a phone call from a friend that we were going out that night with a load of girls. The chatter box negative mind starting coming in again that "I would never get a girlfriend" that "I was useless with women" that "I was ugly" that "girls don't like me" etc. etc. the list goes on. Again I had had enough I agreed with the thoughts and said ok what am I going to do now, I'm going to go out and enjoy myself. Any anxious thoughts about the future I said ok agreed with it, agreed that the worst outcome would occur that "yes no girls fancy me" etc. I then said so what? Why don't I just enjoy the night? I soon felt again at peace, serene and powerful, these thoughts slowly had less and less power over me and were less invasive and by the evening I was in a state of total relaxation and peace.
I walked into the restaurant to meet my friends and the girls and to my amazement across the table she was sitting there, the girl of my dreams the girl I dreamed of the night before! It struck me as huge coincidence! I could feel the negative voice trying to rise up telling me she could never like me but I quickly agreed with it and dispensed with it "I said ok there is no way she could like me, so why don't I enjoy now enjoy the night, be a gentlemen and imagine and treat her as if she was my girlfriend" another thought came through which was intuition it said "Love is unconditional". I can only say I had one of the most amazing nights of my life not just because of the girl but the peace I felt with other people. Intuition told me to take her by the arm when we were going to a bar near by, and we talked for a long time that night I was totally present, selfless and aware. I made no moves on her just enjoyed her company that night. The next day I was also peaceful and serene and sometimes thinking of the girl I had met the night before. But again the nightmare crisis in my family swallowed me up, I had to leave London, due to events I soon lost contact with my being state after that and I never really intellectually understood what occured to me on those 3 days until recently. My friend later told me that the girl of my dreams was trying to get in touch with me for weeks she was crazy about me, but as I had already left London and later the UK it ended there.
The reason for telling you the story above is this.
Having recently discovered Buddhism and meditation, I cannot seem to meditate in the conventional way taught by any buddhists or other people. I had read several books and watched several videos (Eckhart Tolle Power of Now is the most recent one). If I try to meditate my heart begins to race, if I try to focus on awareness or bring conscious light to emotion or thoughts it just intensifies them and I become dragged into them. Dealing with the past is easy, it is the past and it is done, over, fullstop, the future anxieties are more difficult to take care of.
I seem to only be able to begin to reach this peacful state when I talk to my incoming thoughts in a compassionate way, so for example with the voice and emotion of future anxiety come in I say yes ok what if the worst outcome will occur what will I do right now? I accept the worst outcome I say ok it will be and then I ask myself what will I do now. Just enjoy the moment, relax. It then dissolves.
Effectively I surrender to the negativity, I agree with it or even surpass it with even more negative outcomes and it then starts to lose its power. I say ok what if this does happen, so what, what now?
Is this wrong? It feels right for me? It feels like release. Eventually if I can keep it up, the negative thoughts and emotions lose their power, I come into the now and become relaxed and peaceful , it is then that I can ask myself what will I do now or decide just to relax. I know if I can keep going doing this (although I have not done so yet) I know I can reach the enlightened state I have done twice before.
My only worry is that when I agree with these thoughts although they no longer hurt me anymore does agreeing with them prophecy my future? Testament to this is the fact to date I still have had 0 girls in my life and I am significantly older and would have liked to have shared some love with someone. I did meet the girl of my dreams again but she was no longer the same girl I met before, I was also in the throws of depression and I behaved like a fool, I suppose that maybe agreeing with the negative voice prophecied my future?
If anyone has any pointers I would appreciate it.
0
Comments
I think I hear your questions, and maybe some of the problems you're experiencing. Just to make sure I'm hearing it right... you have a critical voice in your mind, and when you interact with that voice by counter-pressuring or thinking, it eventually subsides and you find some peace. The peace that arises is then insightful, described as an enlightened perspective.
First I would like to let you know that it is completely normal for that kind of thing to happen, it is quite common and there is nothing wrong with you.
What you are dealing with is habituated thinking, and there are some tools you can use. The best of which is meditation. If you can find a teacher in a local sangha who can help you with beginning a stable meditation practice, you will certainly find more success.
Many beginners start with a mind very similar to yours... it just takes proper effort.
It sounds like when you have a desire, your mind automatically starts rampaging out thoughts that criticize your ability to manifest that desire. Does that make sense? Its as though your desire is a seed, and when it hits your mind a critical plant begins to grow around that seed, which tells you that it could never produce a kind of fruit that is really what you want. So instead, what you do is clip the plant, by talking to it. So, the garden (your mind) is not overrun by critical thoughts, because you clip them over and over while they were sprouting.
There is a problem with this kind of practice, and that is that you then end up with empty soil over and over and over, using the energy of the desire to combat the critic, leaving you empty and depressed, without the fruit you were hoping for in the first place. The irony is that through investing yourself into combating the critical thoughts, you fuel them, and validate them, and then make them true!
For instance with a new girl. You have the desire for female companionship. With the arising of the desire, lots of habituated thoughts come in like "oh, thrombox, you are stupid, you are ugly, girls don't like you, you're a loser" If you combat these thoughts, you are devoting even more of your life to them, by thinking "oh, thrombox, you are smart, you are handsome, girls dig you" etc in direct counterpoint to the unskillful thinking. But that's just more unskilful thinking! Can you see how that lets the critical thoughts eat up even MORE space in your head? There is a way to cut at the root of the behavior, so you're not debating with your own head every time you have a desire.
The key is to just notice that you're doing it, being mindful that it is simple unskillful thinking. Thoughts happen, and you notice it, and do nothing to them but look at the true nature of them. They are simple, unskillful habituated thoughts. That's it... all they are, and all you do is look. Its like a car with a flat tire, easy enough to fix, just need a little proper effort. Not some lifetime ill you're carrying, just some habitual thoughts. Just notice. Hey, there's one now!
It will decrease in strength each time you notice them, because you will be increasing your attention and mindfulness. That mindfulness will dissolve the critical thought quite naturally, like water quenches a flame. Meditation will exponentially increase the speed at which your mindfulness cultivates, and I cannot stress enough how wonderful it is once you are meditating properly.
With warmth,
Matt
(My real name is Joe by the way, thrombox just an internet username!).
Thank you for your advice.
You hit the nail on the head when you said:
This is exactly what my mind does to everything.
The above is absolutely correct, I have tried doing it and it does not work you spend most of your time battling the thoughts. But this is not what I did when I was 17 and reached the being state and not exactly what I'm trying to get at.
I actually agree with the negative thoughts (which also come up strongly as emotion), the thoughts say "you can't do this" "can't do that" "you're a loser" "everyone else is a winner" "you're too old for girls now" etc. and so I say "Ok, so I'm a loser" "Ok let's say, everyone else is a winner" etc. now that I surrender and dealt with all those negative emotions and thoughts it feels like a great release and strengh, I become present and peaceful (but not yet totally in the enlightened state!). After agreeing with the thoughts and saying yes ok if this is the case, then it is done and dusted, then I ask what will I do right now?
I will give you an example of when this occured to me (although I was not aware of it at the time) when I was 13, we we're playing a chess match against another school that was better than ours at chess (they were champions). I by mistake touched a piece on the chess board (I have never done this mistake since) and my opponent forced me to move the piece, in doing so I lost half the board. I took a long time moving pieces as I watched the disaster unfold on the board. Soon the other boards finished their games 1 Loss, 1 Draw and 1 Win. So the whole school match depended on me Winning, Drawing or Losing, and I had half the pieces that he had, anyone looking at the board could have seen I was going to lose.
My mind was frantic, worrying about this and that, beating myself up about making a stupid mistake, and then it hit me I said the words "Ok, I made a mistake" "Ok I messed up" "Ok, I have definetely lost the match" I accepted the negative voice. It immediately dissolved and I composed my emotions I felt peaceful and accpetance for a moment in my mind, in that moment of awareness the answers started flowing in very quickly, so.. "Ok, if I've lost this chess match but I'm going to give him a run for his money, I might have made a mistake, I might have lost, but every one of my pieces on this chess board will be like a tiger even the pawns, I am going to conduct the most brilliant defence", a powerful inspiration came into me and I began working overtime to create traps, diversions, smoke screens and outmanoeuvre my opponent who had more than twice my pieces.
By now I had already had an audience around me being the last game and it taking so much time. I could see the opponent was so focused on the future and wiping out the last remenants of my pieces quickly (I had less than half than he did), that he failed to spot the present; that his King was in a vulnerable position locked behind a wall of 3 pawns. To cut a long story short he did not spot my last Rook (my last decent piece!) which with a diversion moved to the end of the board and checkmated him in one move.
I had won the match and the game for the school, as I looked up a slow ovation began from all the people who had watched the game including the opposition, the genius that led me to win could have only come from a higher source (through side tracking the negative mind). My chess game was the talk of the school that day and many people congratulated me. Despite this I did not let my egoic mind take me over, I was quite humble.
I use the example above to illustrate a time when I agreed with the voice and said "Ok, I've lost the game" "Ok, I have failed" and now what? If this is true then now what?.
Perhaps I have answered my own question, because in this instance it certainly calmed the frantic waters of my mind, emotion dissolved and the inspiration and answers came through.
Is this something or a method that Buddhism or meditation is aware of? It seems to me to be the only method that works for me at the moment? Everything else seems to have no effect on me.
It is effectively disarming any desire and the pain that the critical mind does to it by agreeing with the critical mind, and living in the now.
Any thoughts are welcome.
Peace
Joe
When I hear your story of accepting the negative thoughts, I think that most of your potency in that situation came from accepting the present moment. "I made a mistake" is not critical, its analytical. When we can accept that we make mistakes, then move on, certainly we can be present and bring our faculties to the game... so to speak.
If you can see how peaceful your experience became as the thoughts quieted, perhaps you can see what is at stake in learning to work with your mind skillfully. Rather than a random, once in awhile occurrence, your life can move into that space.
Buddhist meditation isn't really about embracing thoughts. Its more attuned to seeing how there is no substance behind them... there is no I to criticize, so communicating with the thoughts is like talking to a shadow. However, this requires insight that seems to only cultivate on the cushion, from what I have personally seen.
When you say "everything else seems to have no effect on me" I have to submit that it feels like self sabotage, rather than direct personal insight. Your potential is near infinite, it only takes some steady footfalls along a skillful path. Imagine someone saying to you "chess is too complicated, it doesn't work for me." Obviously, chess is complicated, but it can be learned, one move at a time. That is Buddhism. One breath at a time, we move our pawns one space at a time and begin to understand how the game really works.
Its not that it doesn't work for you, its that you haven't yet learned.
With warmth,
Matt
If I may say I'm not sure I agree about the personal insight part:
I have been twice in a state of englightenment, once forced into it by outer circumstances and my impending death at 15. And once by mistake when I unaware of what I was doing made myself conscious this while suffering a life crisis aged 17. I will tell you the exact mental process and how it happened exactly when I was 17, please note it was not an instant transformation it took 1-4 hours before I really settled into the same state as when I nearly died. Thoughts would crop up but less and less as I dealt with them more until 4 hours later no thought, just serene, peaceful and powerful.
This is exactly how it happened and it took a lot of self-discipline. In 3-4 parts
So a thought like "No girls fancy me, I will never get a girlfriend flew into my head". (Although I dealt with all negative or over excited thoughts and emotions in exactly the same way).
1) I would say the following:
"Ok, so lets say girls don't fancy me, lets say I won't get a girlfriend. It's done and dusted, so what?" and I would accept it and feel this ever growing peace.
2) I would then say the following:
"Ok now that girls don't fancy me. Why don't I just enjoy the moment, why don't I just enjoy girls company, why don't I just be a gentlemen around them, instead of being goal orientated". The words "No moves, just relax" came through intuitively.
3) Whenever a thought or emotion would come up either due to external or internal stimuli: For an emotion I would do part 1) again and it would quickly subside, for a thought I did Part 2) and I quickly relaxed.
4) The words "No moves, just relax" is something I often repeated, almost like a mantra, and really made me present and relaxed.
Doing this for 3 days I can only say I was in the same enlightened state as I was when I nearly died. The only difference is that when I nearly died time almost stopped to a stand still, while time did slow down in my 2nd experience it was not as slow as in my first experience.
Well there is some point to my method and I think really I am saying the same thing. Effectively by agreeing with a negative thought be it now or in the future I am neutralising it not fighting it and becoming present.
So for example in the chess match I said to the chatter box mind "Ok, I've already lost the game, what am I going to do now?", the thought was that I lost, but actually in the end I won.
With the girl of my dreams I also said to the chatter box mind "Ok, there is no way that that girl can fancy me, so why don't i just be a gentleman and treat her as if she was my girlfriend", Lo and behold I heard from my friend that the girl did fancy me.
So you are right the thoughts do not have substance, even what I said to myself to silence the chatter box was in the end not true in both cases above, but it did make me present doing so.
Peace
Don't say "Up!" until you jumped over the fence (or wall).
The thing is, that you should ignore your anxieties, or just solve them just as you can solve a maths problem. You should not attach to those negative feelings . Those will just increase you suffering.
I have also been through your situation a year ago ( except the part with the NDE), when I discovered what meditation can do, and that's how I ended a big part of my suffering.
Again, about agreeing with your own negativity...you should just say :" Maybe yes, maybe not.", and find out which of maybe yes, or maybe not will be at the right time.
What I am saying is that perhaps if you were not busy with your mental mumbo jumbo, you would have been awake enough to notice that she did, when there was time to do anything about it. The way it unfolded you: 1) said that she doesn't like you 2) said she doesn't like me so relax and have a good time 3) missed observing the actual experience 4) didn't end up with her.
If this thread was intended on promoting your mental behavior practice, I apologize for not treating it as such... to me it seemed like you were looking for help to escape your pattern of solitude and mental criticism.
However it is, good luck upon you!
With warmth,
Matt
Solitude part is not applicable as I went to an all boys boarding school my whole life since age 8 and have no sisters or cousins. I had a lot of friends at the time who knew girls however.
Escape mental criticism? Isn't that a central idea in buddhism, to end suffering? Thats exactly why I did, yes to escape insane mental criticism that had no real substance.
...I have tried this but it is not satisfied with that answer! It's like a child and I have to tell it no.
My only fear with the method of saying "ok, what if it is the case, so what, what now?" and agreeing and thus disarming the mental phantom, is that perhaps I am affecting the actual outcome of my life in a negative way and effectively neutralising desires? With the chess match it seems to have worked perfectly although I did not sustain anything like an enlightened state but became present and brought my emotions in line and with the girl while I was present with her well maybe it was not meant to be? I know for a fact had I not unexpectedly had to leave london permanently the next day, we would have been seeing each other.
Matt while I do want to get into meditation in a serious way, and I would like to learn at the moment I am just not able to go to a meditation or buddhist centre. I have tried conventional methods on my own but have so far failed, so I need a stop gap measure, and the one that has worked for me in the past, and have reached the same state as when I nearly died, acceptance peace, serenity etc. was what I did when I was 17 and initiated compassionate dialogue with the negative voice instead of reacting, ignoring or trying to bury it.
The method feels right but requires discipline perhaps that is all the answers I need, but I fear that like you said was this because I agreed with the voice? Another side of me says quite obviously not I was swallowed up by the crisis events in my family and unaware dragged back into unconsciousness.
Perhaps the method I have described doesn't fit in with dogma, but with it undeniably I experienced what I experienced when I was about to die, girl or no girl. Perhaps when I say this is the very voice of fear and anxiety, the egoic voice that is only goal orientated and wants future results at the expense of now.
It's this that my mental mind wants clarification on, hopefully if I ever achieve sustained presence like when I was going to die or for those 2-3 days in london I will no longer need the answer? It takes so much discipline.
I think your NDE has some thing to do with your current view. Some times when one's suffering is too much to bear, the letting go happens and one experiences peace. A NDE is somewhat akin to dying before "true death".
IMO you have already reach a place where meditation and contemplation is supposed to lead you to.
Have you heard of the Buddhist concept of tathata?
When you stop struggling and surrender to what is suffering dissolves and a deeper truth emerges. One can then act directly with a clear mind.
When you soften and relax its not like 'enlightenment' but it is the beginning of vast space. Of heart connections. Of questions that fill you with wonder.
In your meditation thats when you will have the old habitual patterns come up. Anger. Wanting to have it your way. We weave a very solid world purely out of thought. When you get distracted in meditation say 'just thinking' or if you will say 'let it be'. Say 'ease up'.
Just thinking and you awake to the texture of your breath. The feel of the wood beneath your body and the smell in the room. All that one sided thinking that is based upon a small narrow vision. Certain socio economic group. Man or women. Age and generation (born in). All those things that program your thinking and mistakenly make you think that thats the way things are when they are just a narrow slice.
Develope a sense of wonder.
So when you come back to thinking and come to the breath your not destroying your thoughts like clay pigeons. You are actually keeping the thoughts as they are!
But you are disentangling from them. That wooly lull. Focusing to a point where you can see the thoughts and see how wonderful they are. They are not hum drum at all.
During post meditation be a child of illusion. All the thoughts are like this. Making you think they are solid when you can relax and ease up. When you get stubborn (or nervous over a girl) its a good time to ease up. Soften up. See how much space is inside and outside of you.
Joe,
I don't believe in predestination, so I wouldn't ever look at things as "meant to be"... just "how does it appear" vs "what is really" and "how am I reacting" vs "how could compassion respond"
When examining your methods, it does sound to me like the dancing in your head leaves you deluded as far as how reality actually is. As you say, its perhaps making your experience more peaceful, but you seem to be less aware of what is surrounding you. By substantiating the thoughts, agreeing or whatnot, I wonder if you're looking at your mind, and not the situation. Does this make sense?
There are some great meditation practice threads around here. My favorite introductory series can be seen on youtube here.
Best wishes,
Matt
And yet like I have said before, it was exactly the experience I had when I nearly died.
After the 2-4 hour induction of accepting the negative voice, it stopped being persistant, and eventually stopped until I entered the same state as I was before I was going to die, except for one difference time slowed down before I was going to die.
There was no dancing in my head after this, no thought for large gaps sometimes even 3-5 minutes at the time, just awareness, appreciation and joy, peace serenity and the powerful intuitive voice I felt before I was going to die. There were no mind thoughts either, intuition was guiding me with feelings and sometimes with thought.
No I never said this, and no I was not less aware but more aware, when I was with the girl I was more aware, I talked and knew about things in her life intuitively, no way my mind could have guessed those things.
To relax is to literally become present, effectively my mantra was "become present" or as I was saying to myself "enjoy the now, relax"
So I'm sorry while it doesn't fit in with buddhist teachings, both my "being" experiences happened before I even knew what meditation or buddhism were.
My reason for coming to the forum is that I am trying to reach that state again, but all the other methods I have tried I have not been succesful, the one method I did employ I did so by mistake and it did work, despite it not being in line with teachings and yet I have never seen anybody mention this method. Eckhart Tolle does mention a method of becoming present as "surrendering to the now", thats definetly what it feels like when I tell the negative voice "ok, so what if it is, what now".
I'm going to try my method again and see where it gets me, the only difference now is before I did it unaware and unbeknownst to its effects, so it might take double the discipline.
With warmth,
Matt
This state "happened" by itself as it it did in Tolle's case.
The "proven" method is the 2500 year Noble 8 Fold Path.
BTW the "surrendering to the moment" is part of the Buddhist meditation.
I have been trying everyday for months hours on end to do breathing, focus on presence, numerous youtube videos of meditation, I have even been to weekly 1 1/2 hour meditation classes at a buddhism centre.
If I try to ignore the thoughts with emotions or disentangling them with awareness the thought continues to recur, worse when I feel an emotion and I try to become aware of it, guess what I feed it. It grows and grows, and becomes more present with attention and effectively starts banging louder and louder against the door of my mind.
I have not had a depressive relapse for 1 year now and after doing meditation by the books, I had a relapse yesterday just only after meditating traditionally. Only this time knowing what I now know I quickly threw away the traditional meditations that people do and reverted to what I did when I was 17. I opened dialogue with the negative emotion in 10 minutes I had the situation back under control.
I remember before my near death experience, yes there was a voice in my head, not the same voice as the negative "chatterbox", much more contemplative, wise, peaceful and strong. It is this voice that talks, it is the one that spoke to me before I died and the one that always talks to me in a ultimate situation and when I am totally peaceful. I must say I feel it is me talking when I answer negative emotions or the critical voice, it speaks slowly but profoundly. By surrendering to the depressive voice and saying "yes, it was it happened/what if it is true?/ok, that is the past and it was" I quickly neutralised the emotions, I welcomed the depressive feelings and thoughts, opened dialogue, then accepted them and they dissapated.
I realise now that my ego has even tried to trick me into thinking that I must eliminate the NDE voice as well, and I now know this because everytime I try to achieve total silence and "no-mind" I feel emotional pain in my heart, I really feel bad and while I can achieve it for around 5-15 seconds invariably througout half an hour, having tricked me the negative thoughts and emotions come crashing in double as hard just as I silenced the guardian of my space. I did not have total silence even before I was going to die, gaps yes but not total silence.
Hence I will revert to my method as when I was 17. I am going to open dialogue to the incoming emotions from the past and the future and the negative voice of the present as well. Once these diffuse I know that I will be in the same peaceful and present state I achieved at my NDE and when I was 17, I already deflected my depressive bout in minutes which normally takes me a couple of days to get out of. I will keep you posted on my progress!
To understand suffering is to open to it. We say, 'We understand suffering because it's...' We rationalise it, but that's not understanding. It's in welcoming the suffering that we are experiencing - our frustration, despair, pain, irritation, boredom, fear and desires - just welcoming, opening, accepting.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books9/Ajahn_Sumedho_Suffering_Should_be_Welcomed.htm
I enjoyed reading your experiences and getting to know you a little bit. I'm sorry to hear you have experienced a relapse.
There is great insight and advice in this thread, but that is all it is, advice. No one here can tell you what is best for you, only you can decide that. We all have different experiences that shape the way we think, on the same note though we are all the same, everyone has these voices in their heads, these feelings, insecurities, doubts, because we're all human. We each develop our own ways of dealing with these distractions so that we can become more aware and achieve happiness and peace.
If I may be so bold, you are searching for those two things aswell and I hope you find them, I can not tell you what path is best for you, all I can tell you is what works for me, and perhaps since you and I are similar it may work for you as well.
First I would suggest that you look at the replies to this thread not as judgement or directions on what you have to do, but as guidance from people interested in your happiness trying to help the best that they can.
Next I would like to point out something others have said about your situation, habitual thinking. In Buddhism there is Samsara, samsara is the cycle of suffering, to those who believe in reincarnation it is the cycle of rebirth, but it also has relevance in our daily lives. It is a trapped state of mind, it is those voices in your head, the negative one and the one trying to quiet it. The negative voice blocks out opportunities, skews your perceptions, causes you suffering. The other one trying to quiet it, accepting what it says and telling it "it doesn't matter" bringing you temporary relief. this allows you moments free from the nagging negativity of the other voice. But that voice isn't gone, it comes back, and so the cycle begins again. I think that is why you are here, why you have made this thread. If this way of quieting the voice provided you with a longer lasting state of happiness and peace, you wouldn't be here looking for it. You want to achieve longer lasting serenity, and to do this, you must break this cycle.
Becoming aware of the situation is a step towards breaking out of it and I applaud your effort, honesty and taking the initiate to create this thread. It's not an easy thing to do, opening up your heart like this for all to see, asking for help. I respect you for it, for your bravery and your wisdom, because you are brave and you are wise, you realize you don't want to live this way and are taking action. This is something not everyone realizes, instead they are stuck suffering unaware that there is more to life. You are aware.
Right now, I suggest, don't worry about all the varieties of meditation. Instead find sometime when you are alone. Shut off the distractions, the pc, the tv, maybe go outside if you are more comfortable there, and just sit. Sit however you are comfortable, or stand if you are more comfortable standing, walk around if you are more comfortable doing that, lay if that is what works best for you. Get comfortable and get acquainted with your mind.
When a negative thought pops up, don't accept what it has to say, don't push it aside, question it, understand it. "This is stupid" ask it why. Why is your weapon. "this will never work" why? keep asking it why until you reach the answer. This negative voice is afraid, it is fear, discover what it is afraid of, why it is afraid. Get to know yourself.
This is only one step, after you learn more about this negative voice you'll be able to do other steps, other meditations, but lets take it one step at a time.
I am interested in helping you, I want you to feel the peace I feel. But I am no teacher or wise person, just a person like you trying to make the best out of life. If you are interested in trying what I suggest, report back afterwards and let me know what that negative side of yourself said.
Best of luck.
Namaste.
This is almost correct, but please note that I have not been maintaining or doing the method I described in this thread. I did it when I was 17 and I am trying it again now.
The difference between the voices is this, one is voluntary and one is involuntary. When I think of doing something or a goal voluntarily, an involuntary negative voice flies in and tells me why I can't do it, it is as you say fear, anxiety and all those things. The voluntary voice does not talk all the time, it feels, it is intuitive, it suggests strongly, you know that when it says something it is profound and comes from a higher place above logical intelligence.
Correct, I failed to remain conscious, one must be very vigilant not to be dragged into the unconscious chatterbox mind, but I succeeded for 2-3 days when I was 17 I have done it before.
I realise now that it is the involuntary voice that has effectively led me here, it has been making excuses for why I can't find the solution. It has been trying to make something that is really quite simple quite complicated by making a problem out of it. I have been in an englightened state before, although my method is questionable to others and it is only the chatterbox mind that seeks validation of the method, when there is really none needed.
Well, that's only one part of what I tell the involuntary voice. When I was 17 it took me an incredible amount of initial mental energy and inertia to start listening to the involuntary voice and intiating a voluntary dialogue with it. As I kept discovering when it popped up and diffusing it with dialogue it slowly lost its power over me so instead of hearing it every 5 minutes, it became 15 minutes, then 1 hour, then 2, then 4, then none. =That is what happened.
This is spot on! I will do this! Although I have not always asked why I have done it on occasion in the past. Sometimes I ask "why?" and get an answer based on fear of loss or non-achievement, and then I ask "ok, and what would happen if it didn't happen or I did lose it?".."what if?" and then silence... "So what? So what if it doesn't/does happen? What am I going to do now?" the involuntary voice then subsides, and I feel peace if the involuntary voice says something again I repeat the answer to it again, and it loses its power.
Of note should the situation require in a peaceful state the "What am I going to do now?" part can give me great inspiration which I can only say feels divine, it is a mind state that goes beyone results and focuses only on the now.