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Dilemma... I need your insight.
I was dating a woman much older than me last year. Let's call her Jane.
Jane ended up getting pregnant and we decided to give the baby up for adoption. When the baby came out, Jane changed her mind and decided to keep our son.
Ever since then, Jane and I have "ended" our relationship and only been seeing each other because of our son.
I've told my parents about my son recently and they are very upset about it. They're traditional Asian parents who strongly believe that kids should only be born inside of marriage.
They do not wish to see their grandson because it was a "mistake." My parents asked that I should stop seeing Jane and my son altogether. They believe that if I keep seeing and getting involved in the baby's and Jane's life, it would make it hard for both of us to move on to build a new life.
My parents explained that if I keep "sticking around," Jane wouldn't be motivated to find a new man and possibly a father figure for the baby.
My parents are also concerned that if I get involved with the baby's life, it might become an obstacle for me in pursuing a new committed relationship and possibly starting a family in the future.
I'm also worried about the financial burden aspect of it as well. If Jane decides to take me to court in the future, I would be barely getting by trying to pay back the big school loan on top of the child support if that happens.
At this point, I don't know what I want out of life. I'm not even sure if I want to get married or have kids later on.
Quite frankly, I do not know what to do about the situation. I'd like to hear some of your insights. Thanks in advance.
Jane ended up getting pregnant and we decided to give the baby up for adoption. When the baby came out, Jane changed her mind and decided to keep our son.
Ever since then, Jane and I have "ended" our relationship and only been seeing each other because of our son.
I've told my parents about my son recently and they are very upset about it. They're traditional Asian parents who strongly believe that kids should only be born inside of marriage.
They do not wish to see their grandson because it was a "mistake." My parents asked that I should stop seeing Jane and my son altogether. They believe that if I keep seeing and getting involved in the baby's and Jane's life, it would make it hard for both of us to move on to build a new life.
My parents explained that if I keep "sticking around," Jane wouldn't be motivated to find a new man and possibly a father figure for the baby.
My parents are also concerned that if I get involved with the baby's life, it might become an obstacle for me in pursuing a new committed relationship and possibly starting a family in the future.
I'm also worried about the financial burden aspect of it as well. If Jane decides to take me to court in the future, I would be barely getting by trying to pay back the big school loan on top of the child support if that happens.
At this point, I don't know what I want out of life. I'm not even sure if I want to get married or have kids later on.
Quite frankly, I do not know what to do about the situation. I'd like to hear some of your insights. Thanks in advance.
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Comments
It would be unfair for anyone to push their views onto you in this regard. What is your view of the baby? Are you 100% certain that he is yours? Do you love him? What do you want out of this situation? Have you talked to Jane? Has she said you interfere with her being able to date? Have you and Jane worked out the kind of relationship expectations you both have of the new situation?
It does sound like you are being forced to grow up, but sex can do that, especially when babies arrive from it...
Your parents sound ignorant and prejudiced. If I were you, I would empathize with them (as they do sound like they are trying to look out for what they think is in your best interest), then summarily reject their advice. But that's just me...
With warmth,
Matt
Seconded.
I am only speaking from my own experience here... many men I know that have been in your situation have found themselves emotionally drawn to wanting to relate to the child specifically as a father- I can think of a few that have had children under the same circumstances and have fought like animals to be part of the child's life.
I admit to ignorance about how this would be viewed in Theravada- and I specifically don't want to be seen as doing another "Theravada drive-by", but all I know is Mahayana/Vajrayana, and in those traditions (to the best of my knowledge, at least) there is thought to be karmic affinity in those kinds of relationships. So there's that to consider.
My view of the baby was rather neutral and "numb" due to the shock of it all. However, he's growing on me now. It lights up my heart to see him laugh and smile.
I'm certain he's mine. I have not asked for paternal testing but perhaps I will in the future.
She never mentioned that my presence will interfere with her finding a new mate. It's just an assumption.
We haven't really worked out "relationship expectations" consciously. We've been just going with the flow. She definitely wants me around for the baby. I'm not sure what to mention and how to go about working out the "relationship expectations."
My parents do sound rather close-minded about the situation. But, I understand and empathize with their reaction. After all, it was their life's dream to see me marry the "perfect girl" and start a family like "normal" people.
What is this karmic affinity you speak of?
If not, I'd recommend staying on good terms with Jane.
On a less cynical note, loving your son and maintaining a good relationship with Jane is probably the best way you can help your parents overcome the harm they are doing themselves. They don't have spoil their grandson the way most grandparents do, but they do themselves no good by viewing his existence as a mistake or a problem.
But seriously, given the above, and the whole Mahayana/Vajrayana "primordial mind" concept and their strong adherence to reincarnation of humans as "continuities of consciousness", something like "cluster reincarnation" makes perfect sense to me.
Maybe I'm completely wrong about the real Buddhist aspects of it, but I feel a strong sense of affinity for my own son, who is now 14. It's like our personalities are just so much alike, even though he's lived mainly with his mother since 2003.
In Chinese Mahayana there's a strong tradition of "filial piety", which is emphasis on respect for the parents, but I feel like it goes both ways.
I could be way off with this, but I think it may be better not to close off your options prematurely.
Some may call me an old fool, but that's where I'm coming from with fatherhood.
And I just noticed RG posted "On a less cynical note, loving your son and maintaining a good relationship with Jane is probably the best way you can help your parents overcome the harm they are doing themselves. They don't have spoil their grandson the way most grandparents do, but they do themselves no good by viewing his existence as a mistake or a problem."
I would just say that once they get over the shock of this having happened so suddenly, they might decide they want to become active grandparents.
If he's mainly living with his mom, does that mean you guys are divorced or never married to begin with?
How often do you see your son? What is your relationship like with the mother? Do you help them financially?
We were married from 1994-2003.
When my ex remarried, she and her husband relocated my son from the southwest US to the upper midwest US in 2005. My son and I were apart for four months, until I relocated too. They moved him again last December to the southeast US but I haven't been able to get there yet. He might come and live with me instead.
Buddhist joke: my ex and her husband are excellent dharma teachers.
Of course I help financially. Not much avoiding that in the civilized world.
I could tell you a whole lot of stories, but this one is true, I swear- I know of at least three self-immolations by fathers who were driven absolutely stark raving mad by the Family Courts over not being able to see their children. One in Ireland, one in Romania, and one last month in Australia. And that's no s***. Self-immolations. I've seen the photographs from the ones in Romania and Australia on the internet.
It's a strong bond. I guess that's all I can tell you.
It sounds like your heart is open to the child, and you're beginning to bond. That bond will grow even stronger if you let it, and I suggest you do. What I see as the best situation is to accept yourself as the baby's father, and be active in his life. If you can give aid to the mother, and she could better the child's life through it, you should do your best to offer.
If you are anything like me, being a father will soon out-glow any other notions of life or self. Not that you disappear, but there is so much joy and energy involved in raising and loving your child that other notions are outgrown. It might be an unexpected twist for you, but it is worth cultivating that relationship.
Your parents will almost certainly catch up, and if they love you, they will love your child after they grieve for the loss of the "perfect future" they had fantasized for you.
Relationship expectations... hmm. Like, would she like you to take the baby some nights? Change diapers? Would you like to have partial custody? Are you planning on living semi close together so you both have access to your son? Does she expect or need financial support? After you figure out where you are, bringing up the notions and questions about where she is might be simple. The more comfortable you become having open communication with Jane, the better off all three of you will be.
With warmth,
Matt
I was moved away from my dad when I was 8 and it still troubles me! That you moved with him gives me a profound respect for you. I would absolutely do the same.
Here in Michigan its against the law for people to move a child more than 200 miles away from the other parent without court approval. I've never had an issue with my ex, but it is comforting to know I won't have to self-immolate.:rarr:
you had sex with a woman.
Whether it was unprotected sex, or whether some form of contraception was used, I don't know.
but the result of your conjoining was a child.
as much yours, genetically, as hers.
Whilst your parents may reserve the right to make such rash and self-righteous judgements upon you and this woman - it doesn't make them right.
You now - to my mind - have a 100% responsibility for - and to - this child. he is your offspring, your flesh and blood, and a part of your life that is present and undeniable.
To cut yourself off from him will have long-term repercussions, both emotionally and practically.
You owe it to him, to his mother and to yourself to step into the 21st century, and do what is right.
You keep in touch, and you help to support him, by contributing to his upbringing. In every way possible.
Face the reality. He's here. He exists. He's part of you.
He is your son, and always will be for the remainder of your life, whether your parents acknowledge this or not.
if you think a paternity test is unnecessary, then don't have one. the only reason you should have one, is to establish beyond any doubt at all, that this is your son.
If he is not your son, you would have no responsibility, obligation or commitment necessary at all.
you could walk away with a clear conscience and never see either him, or his mother, ever again.
But if he IS your son - you owe it to him, to be his father.
Anybody can be a parent. We all have that equipment.
Can you be a father, Pain?
Do you have what it takes?
Why do you need our advice? You have the boon of having 50% (not 100%, Fede) of the responsibility for a wonderful new journey through the world. True, it was not something you and "Jane" decided to do but there it is.
Lots of births are "unplanned", both inside and outside long-term relationships/marriage. I am just such a 'mistake' and my father did not join my mother until they had a second child, 15 months after me - this time by choice. I may have "issues" around my parents (who doesn't?) but I am damned glad that I grew up with a father as well as a mother.
Put yourself, if you can, in your son's place and ask what you would then like?
Couldn't have said it better.
if you're going to do it, do it now. If you decide to later after not only you but your child has grown attached to you, too, only for you to find out he isn't biologically yours and for you to leave his life, it will only make it harder on everyone.
Each parent has 100% of the responsibility.
That is mathematically implausible.
Pain,
As you can see from some other responses, the notion of renouncing a child that is yours because it was out of wedlock is almost disgusting. I hope you find the courage to overcome your parental conditioning in this regard.
With warmth,
Matt
My wife too is responsible to our children 100% of the time where ever and what ever she is doing...
So yes... we are, as parents, 100% responsible for our children, 100% of the time...
At least that's my opinion as a father of 2 little boys.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The Prophet Kalil Gibran
Do you have children? If you do or did... Would it then be acceptable for a stranger to walk into your home, even a caring, gentle one who means no harm to your child but only wishes to care for him/her because they are unable to have children of their own... Are you suggesting that since I do not own my children I should accept this situation and allow them to take him/her if the child in its ignorance is willing to go (perhaps he or she is mad at you for not letting him/her play with matches in their room)...
Should I not worry about my child's well being? They are a free being who can care for themselves?
I contend that parents have 100% responsible for them regardless of the above quote... Please explain how it could be otherwise...
Not when it's your baby.
edit-
Exactly.
That's not Buddhism, that's the law in most states in the USA.
It's a quotation from a wonderful book, The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran.
I am father to five children, of whom the twins were still-born, and four stepchildren. These wonderful people have produced three grandchildren (so far) who delight my heart.
You have not understood, I think, what Gibran means when he says that we cannot own our children, just as we are not owned by our own parents. This does not mean or imply that someone else does either. It means that they are separate human beings, entitled to the same rights and duties as every other human. Their dignity is absolute and our task, as I see it as a parent, is to shelter them until they are able to take on the great task of caring for themselves.
Although my eldest will be 36 this year, I worry just as much about them as I did when they were 3.6. That part of parenting never ends.
To come back to the OP: my first wife, after she had decided that she wanted to 'trade me in' for an Italian toyboy, tried to exclude me from seeing my sons. They, however, made it clear that we would remain close, and I have made sure that it was possible. It is quite hard for me to 'advise' on the question of what you, Pain, 'should' or 'ought' to do because each of my children was wanted and planned, as are my stepchildren. I can only tell you that there is nothing in the world to compare with the feeling of your child's arms around your neck and the smell of their hair and the sound of their voice.
From a Buddhist pov, it may be that our instinctive and racial attachment to our children, so necessary for the survival of the species, is an impediment to liberation. Our children are certainly sources of dukkha as well as of joy. How we handle that problem is up to each one of us.
This was precisely my point.
Each 'parent' decided to have sex. Each parent chose what they were doing. Each person is 100% responsible for their own decisions and actions. Therefore, each parent is 100% responsible for their child.
Thanks valtiel.
And, by the way, aMatt, mathematically implausible or not, (and I don't think it IS implausible) with regard to responsibility and input - it's a given.
there are times when Morals override the laws of Mathematics.
That's a very unlikely statement. All you're really doing is changing the terms, which does not override mathematics... it inaccurately represents mathematics in order to give moral teachings.
I think in regards to the OP, we agree on what is the morally appropriate choice, which I think is the essence. I just found the phrasing funny...
You are quite right, Fede. I withdraw the comment and leave it there, undeleted, to remind me not to try to be 'smart'
Firstly it was an expression, not a mathematical theory. If I have to go somewhere without my son, it is my responsibility still to make sure he is cared for. If his father were around and I left him with him or vice versa, it would still be each of our responsibilities. I wouldn't get to say "ok I'm off the clock now even though you're sleeping; my 50% of the time is up so he's not my responsibility anymore" while he stabs himself with a knife a left sitting out as I watch. XD there is such a thing as more than 100% in mathematics. Technically, there was nothing wrong with what was said and really there was no other way to express it. Just to get picky and be a pain in the ass.
I've decided that I'm going to try to be the best father I can be for my son.
I'd like to listen to any tips and wisdom from the fathers in the forum in terms of fatherhood and the relationship with the mother.
I'm gonna try to work out the "relationship expectations" with Jane. I will try for a settlement agreement with Jane without getting the court directly involved for child support.
Your life as you knew it has changed.
Whether you like it or not, you have a son who needs to be taken care of.
If that affects Jane's future relationships then tough titties, if your parents dont like it, then stiff shit too. Those problems are theirs, not yours, learn to understand that.
Keep coming back here if you feel the need for advice, support, or encouragement. But you know what you need to do, so do it.
All the best to you my friend.
I divorced when Greg was just over 2 years old, and decided to stay in the same city despite remarrying and having job opportunites elsewhere, so that he could continue to see his father. He spent every other weekend with him, plus two weeks holiday and alternate birthdays/Christmas. His father also paid child support and is still paying it directly to Greg now he is at Uni. It worked well for us, and Greg has grown up with a good relationship with his father, as well as a close relationship with his 'dad' - Greg calls his father by his first name and his stepfather 'dad' - that was his choice.
Because of the reasons for my divorce I found it very difficult to stay in contact with my ex, but it was worth it.
Many children who have not had contact with their biological fathers feel tremendous sadness and often feel that it was their fault that their dad was not in touch. So I'm pleased for you all that you have decided to stay in contact.
I like the idea of 'karmic' relationships extending into our past lives. That makes a lot of sense to me, and also provides more reason to work at those that are blood relationships, but difficult.
Metaa
Bless you. There's no smiley/emoticon for a kiss so CYK.:D
i think this is a fantastic decision and i wish the best for both you and your son.
now, i'm not a father, but i am the daughter of divorced parents. as far as child support goes, please just make sure if you do it outside of the courts that you get everything in writing. i'm not trying to say that you shouldn't trust jane, but really, you just never know. these types of situations can sometimes turn out ugly when emotions are involved. while i think this arrangement would not impede her from requesting child support through the courts in the future, it would hopefully keep you safe from paying back child support or not being credited for previously paid child support. also keep in mind that children can be incredibly expensive. i think a proper written agreement should definitely involve a clause that you are responsible for 50% of medical bills. this could have potentially saved my own parents a few arguments, heh.
This is not a matter of what you want, nor of what is convenient for you. You and "Jane" made a new life together, and now both of you are responsible for taking care of that life.
If you do not think you can tolerate "barely getting by", see if you can be awarded full-time custody of the child. Then you don't have to pay child support. Otherwise ...
You know in your deepest heart what's the right thing to do.