Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Killing to end suffering (& Thích Quảng Đức + meditation)
This may be a little depressing, so skip the first two paragraphs if you are sensitive. (If I read something like this, it'd ruin my day.)
Anyway, in the past week or so, I've been witness to three different animals die prolonged and horrible deaths. It's really gotten to me; when I close my eyes I see them. Buddhist advice on dealing with the reality of terrible people and terrible suffering would also be appreciated.
But in any case, I was unable to reach two of them; however, today I snapped the neck of the third (a bird that had flown into a window) rather than let it continue in obvious agony.
Was this the right choice? What does Buddhism say about decisions like these?
My other question involves one of the main reasons I became a Buddhist: Thích Quảng Đức. That is, one of the monks who immolated himself in Vietnam. His incredible sacrifice is inspiring, but something I've always wondered is: what did he feel?
He never changed expression, apparently, but I'm not an experienced enough "meditator" to know whether he was feeling the agony but supremely disciplined, able to distance himself from the pain, or something else entirely.
Thanks very much,
--Vil
Anyway, in the past week or so, I've been witness to three different animals die prolonged and horrible deaths. It's really gotten to me; when I close my eyes I see them. Buddhist advice on dealing with the reality of terrible people and terrible suffering would also be appreciated.
But in any case, I was unable to reach two of them; however, today I snapped the neck of the third (a bird that had flown into a window) rather than let it continue in obvious agony.
Was this the right choice? What does Buddhism say about decisions like these?
My other question involves one of the main reasons I became a Buddhist: Thích Quảng Đức. That is, one of the monks who immolated himself in Vietnam. His incredible sacrifice is inspiring, but something I've always wondered is: what did he feel?
He never changed expression, apparently, but I'm not an experienced enough "meditator" to know whether he was feeling the agony but supremely disciplined, able to distance himself from the pain, or something else entirely.
Thanks very much,
--Vil
0
Comments
However, it was pretty badly messed up; I have some experience with birds (I have two as pets and love them to bits!) and I do not think it could have survived in any case. What is one to do if another solution is not possible? Let it expire in pain, or kill it?
How do you know it wanted to die even though it was in pain? Would cutting off its life be the "right" thing if it "wanted" to live despite the pain?
If one were honest the answer would be "I don't know". If that be the case, perhaps it is better to not do anything.
If I have a beloved pet that is suffering and there is no hope of improvement, I would have it put down and would consider it an act of compassion.
I cannot say anything about the second part of your post...I just don't know.
I don't think it did want to die, at least not specifically. That made the decision very hard. I think that by definition, though, pain is something nothing wants, and if it were shortly to die anyway...
I don't know. As Shutoku says, if I were the bird, I would have wanted to die; but I can't say the bird did. I can say it was suffering and perhaps, if it could understand, it would be grateful, but you are correct that the answer is truly "I don't know". Since I cannot read its mind, I could only tell from its behavior, and I felt that it was worse not to do anything.
(My bias comes out here - I am thinking I did the right thing, or I would not have done it. But I am not the wisest person, nor very experienced in Buddhist thought.)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. Maybe I did do the right thing.
I considered, even wanted to walk away and let it do as it willed, but it felt like the coward's way out. Like you say, I would not let my birds suffer. But perhaps I do them a disservice, too.
--Vil
I hadn't considered the Buddhist belief in these things, which is what I presume you're getting at. Thanks for getting me to consider something new.
--Vil
I gather that Thích Quảng Đức spent several weeks in preparation for his suicide, doing a specific meditation. I would like to know more details about the meditation he did.
The stories of the Buddha describe him in great physical pain but enduring it mindfully and peacefully. Then again, rumours surrounding Thich Quang Duc's death suggest he was drugged. :buck:
I'm sorry you had to go through a disturbing experience, it is never easy to make decisions like that. One of the concepts that helped me come to peace with making choices that are obscured (when we cannot feel confidence or see the right choice) is that intention makes a huge difference in the way we approach our reality.
Your actions were born of a concern for the bird, and that is what really matters. When you look at the karma, killing it might have been the right decision, or the wrong one. What really matters is that the more you use your compassion to act upon the world, the more confidence you will have that in the moment, you did what needed doing... even if it involved a personal difficulty. Then, as you look back at the situation, you can use it for great insight.
Don't be afraid of karma, because its only action. My concern would be aimed at the lack of clarity you had, which lead you to make unskilful decisions. In your case, I wonder why the thought of a vet never came up? There is the hidden treasure of Vilhjalmr in there!! When you witness other's suffering, does it make you cloudy headed? Do you feel an aggression in your body to try to stop another person's suffering? Were you horrified at the notion of the bird? Did you feel responsible for the birds state?
Those are the kinds of questions I feel you should direct inward, not feelings of "should I have or should I not have"... because in answering those questions, and overcoming the delusions revealed from those answers, you can assure yourself that with practice you will be more skillful in the future. Then, your unskillful choice will indirectly increase the quality of the world. Then, the whole of the universe will thank both you and the bird for going through such a catalyst of mutual pain.
With warmth,
Matt
He did not condone it. I didn't like that answer, and I am not sure I could watch my dog suffer needlessly, but that's what the monk said.
I would too. I'd always imagined that intense meditation would let one retreat into a world where pain can't touch you, but I don't know how right that is.
I hadn't heard about that! Wikipedia tells me that Diem's regime is the source of this rumor, and one might suspect their version of events. I'm not sure what to believe.
Your post was most enlightening! I don't want to make excuses for my lack of clarity, though the thought that I had was that horror at this event and the two events previous had made me cloudy-headed, as you suggest. If I can help others due to these events, they are not complete losses. Thank you.
--Vil
It certainly makes sense to me, why you'd have feelings of horror. There is no need for excuses, but if you just look at the chain of thoughts that lead to the cloudy-horror, you'll unlock the potential skillfulness next time. Perhaps you don't respect the teaching quality of suffering, so you see it as "omg, there is suffering! run, attack, fix it!"
For instance, what you could do is look right now at how profound the suffering of yourself and the bird has had on your understanding of your mental patterns. If you can accept that clearly, then next time you notice yourself getting upset over another's suffering, you can remember that it is rich with lessons for everyone, and by not getting upset, you'll be in a greater position to act more compassionately and skillfully in the moment. In the absence of that horror-cloudiness, I bet your mind and heart would have said "call a vet".
With warmth,
Matt
Should we be concerned about you? :eek:
In one sense, I'd agree. It is highly unlikely that Tibetan monks ever had to consider whether or not they would have a vet put their pet dog/cat down. So his "take" on how that matter should be handled can be considered an opinion.
In another sense, though, this monk has been highly-trained in Tibetan Buddhism, having entered Namgyal (the Dalai Lama's monastery) at age 12, obtained his masters in Buddhism and has now been practicing Buddhism for over 40 years. I don't think either you or I can claim to know Buddhism better than he, and his opinion is likely to have a more solid basis in Buddhism than ours.
That doesn't mean I have to like what he told us.
Yet my sister's first teacher, Chodak Tulku Rimpoche, taught weekly classes up to 5 days before his death from pancreatic cancer. No one but his family and the President of the sangha group knew that he had cancer or that he was dying ... because he did not behave any differently than he ever had. He remained calm, focused, easily amused, gentle, sweet and caring. No one knew and it was a terrible shock to the sangha.
I never suggested I "knew Buddhism" better than he does, but Buddhism doesn't cookiecut your ethics and opinions and not only vary from tradition-to-tradition but from person-to-person. Even the Dalai Lama doesn't have such a rigid view of euthenasia as "it is wrong without exception and can't be condoned."
That's a lovely story and I don't doubt it. I said it was a rumour and didn't say I even agreed with it. That there have been moments that I could peacefully endure physical pain gives me faith that this can grow into pure equanimity.