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Lying about Religion
I recall back in high school going through a very aggressively anti-religious period in my thinking. I proudly told myself that I would be defiant in the face of Christianity once I grew up and became an adult.
Interestingly enough, I now find myself frequently in church services and in a variety of Christian denominations. I read the Bible regularly to stay sharp when talking with religious folks, and I play the part of a devout believer very convincingly.
However, I'm still as much of an unbeliever as I was 5 years ago. I don't label myself as atheist or agnostic, but just absolute indifference to faith. What changed? Well, I started dating women.
And my principled stand against going to church and paying lip service to faith quickly dissolved as soon as I found myself wanting to date women who happened to be religious.
So my solution became rather simple really: Never bring up religion, but if pressed for answers by a potential girlfriend, claim strong, personal devotion and a budding interest in whatever denomination she is a member of. Throw in some memorized Bible quotes for good effect.
The very few people I've told of this scheme who are religious themselves find it appalling. Even my non-religious friends ridicule it as giving in or downright silliness. But the fact of the matter is that when 80% of the potential dating population your age is at least nominally Christian, what choice does a non-believer really have.
But is it so reprehensible? To God, if he exists, I'm sure such things would matter. But to a partner or mate, what difference does genuine religious conviction actually make? I mean there is really no outward difference between me and the most devout attendee in the pews. The only difference is in sincerity, which I don't think matters much at all.
Overall, I would say my system has generally been met with success. Only one woman has ever been really suspicious of me, and that was because in a moment of accidental honesty, she trapped me saying that I didn't think belief in Jesus was necessary to avoid eternal damnation. So in that case, the only time my strategy has failed has been when I've let down my defenses.
Anyway, have any of you ever put on a religious mask as it were to please family or a spouse? Successful? Ethical? You tell me.
Interestingly enough, I now find myself frequently in church services and in a variety of Christian denominations. I read the Bible regularly to stay sharp when talking with religious folks, and I play the part of a devout believer very convincingly.
However, I'm still as much of an unbeliever as I was 5 years ago. I don't label myself as atheist or agnostic, but just absolute indifference to faith. What changed? Well, I started dating women.
And my principled stand against going to church and paying lip service to faith quickly dissolved as soon as I found myself wanting to date women who happened to be religious.
So my solution became rather simple really: Never bring up religion, but if pressed for answers by a potential girlfriend, claim strong, personal devotion and a budding interest in whatever denomination she is a member of. Throw in some memorized Bible quotes for good effect.
The very few people I've told of this scheme who are religious themselves find it appalling. Even my non-religious friends ridicule it as giving in or downright silliness. But the fact of the matter is that when 80% of the potential dating population your age is at least nominally Christian, what choice does a non-believer really have.
But is it so reprehensible? To God, if he exists, I'm sure such things would matter. But to a partner or mate, what difference does genuine religious conviction actually make? I mean there is really no outward difference between me and the most devout attendee in the pews. The only difference is in sincerity, which I don't think matters much at all.
Overall, I would say my system has generally been met with success. Only one woman has ever been really suspicious of me, and that was because in a moment of accidental honesty, she trapped me saying that I didn't think belief in Jesus was necessary to avoid eternal damnation. So in that case, the only time my strategy has failed has been when I've let down my defenses.
Anyway, have any of you ever put on a religious mask as it were to please family or a spouse? Successful? Ethical? You tell me.
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Comments
Just my thoughts on the matter...
Mtns
OMG
K, I understand the temptation. I really do. But this is doomed to failure. You're not going to be able to have a relationship with someone without revealing that you really don't share her beliefs, and once she realizes that you've been deceiving her, she's gone. The point of courtship is to build up trust between the two people involved. Anything you do that undermines that will mark you as untrustworthy.
There were times when I tried to persuade myself that I was something other than what I was in order to get a girl's attention. I failed. Fortunately.
I wish you the best of luck in your search for a wife, and I mean that very, very sincerely.
Who's being harmed. Yourself.
Who wants to be involved with a dishonest person? No one.
What it sounds like to me is that you're lonely and insecure about who you are enough to fabricate a mask you think the other person wants your face to look like. You might want to focus your energy there. Lying in order to attract (or not repel) another person is self-defeating because is undermines any true intimacy you might develop with them.
The reason honesty is so critical for a relationship is because pretenses never last... and so as more time passes, you will either be exhausted from trying to be what you think she wants you to be, or you will fail and slip and be yourself and she will actually see you, or you will be in a relationship where you never felt seen at all. No matter how you look at it, this pattern of creating a mask for another person, no matter the topic, is going to prevent lasting happiness.
On the other hand, if you are totally honest (but skillful of course, don't fart in her face on your first date for example) then when it comes time to share love back and forth, she will love you for who you actually are. This is a magical resonance that is worth taking the risk of being honest. There are people out there who will resonate with you, as you are, for who you are. Don't try to milk a stone, you'll only hurt your fingers (or heart.)
With warmth,
Matt
I think you're asking for trouble. Just be yourself. Spend more time with people you have something in common with.
P
I think that's irrelevant. Are those boyfriends across the country being 'true to themselves' who go and see the Twilight movies with their girlfriends and say they like it, while privately hating it? Am I not being true to myself if I pretend like I enjoy going to a cousin's music concert even if I thought he was talentless?
I go to school with very religious people. If they believe I'm destined for hell, they're simply not going to give me a second thought about dating. If they even suspect I'm a little lax in the salvation department, they won't give me a second thought. I think it's all silly of course, but most religious Christians absolutely refuse to date anyone who is irreligious.
I am doing all those things, just not publicly.
I make an explicit point not to debate with them. Knowing the Bible enhances my ability to appear religious.
Not true. She won't. I've met girls who ask about faith very early on in the courting process. The few times I have been honest, ("Oh, I'm kind of indifferent to religion. I try to follow the moral aspect, but not the faith part.") the courtship has ended right there. It's sad, regrettable, and I think insane for religion to be a mandatory qualification, but such is life, and I'm accepting that.
Look, I'm attracted to women with old-fashioned, family values. And the truth is that many of them in that category are deeply religious. I'm not insecure about anything. I'm a realist on this.
I know many marriages where the husband clearly converted just to please his wife and her family. It wasn't heartfelt, but he did it to secure the peace. And I think it was the right decision.
If a non-religious woman comes along whom I am attracted to physically and intellectually, of course I will be forthright with her on my own lack of religious conviction.
I don't really care if she shares the same non-convictions as I do. I would be just as happy dating a non-religious girls vs. a religious one. But it's just a matter of numbers. There are a lot more Christians out there than not in my area.
That is an interesting idea though, visiting a Unitarian church. I know of one nearby. I will consider that one highly.
To thine own self be true
And it must follow, as the night, the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."
I would merely remind you how betrayed, devastated and shattered you felt upon discovering that the woman you thought loved you and was devoted to you, actually turned out to be less forthcoming or honest about her feelings as you'd hoped.
What you consider to be a satisfactory tactic and ploy to secure a girlfriend, will actually considerably destroy the trust of the very person you purport to have affections for.
If you're willing to build and construct such an elaborate charade based on her religious convictions, then what possible evidence does she have to prove you really love her, and don't just want a good lay?
How will she ever be able to trust a single thing you say or do, if you are willing to be such an elaborate and contrived liar about an aspect of her life she considers pivotal?
This is manipulative and premeditated deceit.
I can honestly not think of any redeeming value to this course of action.
If you want a relationship with any kind of intimacy, you are hobbling yourself by lying about this fundamental issue (fundamental to your potential partner, at least.) Lying kills intimacy. It is impossible to be at ease in a relationship which is based on a lie.
Twenty percent of the "dating population" is still a huge number. Actually, the number of people with whom you'll be able to to have peaceful, productive relationship is probably much, much smaller than that. It's a numbers game, and you have to play it like one. When a potential partner presents you with a deal breaking requirement, they've done you a favor. Drop them, and move on to the next possibility. A good book on how to do this is Be Your Own Dating Service. Above all, don't compromise. Don't compromise on your own requirements, and for heaven's sake, don't compromise your integrity. Do you want to be living that lie for the rest of your life?
Besides, the religious ones are less likely to put out.
Ultimately, that number is 2.
Her.
And you.
That has all dawned on me. And yes, the irony has not been lost seeing as how the last relationship ended after much deceiving. BUT, I believe there is a difference. In that case, she was lying about how she felt about me. In this case, I am lying about a religious conviction, not about my own feelings towards a woman. I think that difference is key. There is no less affection towards a potential mate if I am sincerely religious vs. not.
Look, I don't think this is unheard of this thought process of mine. Many of my own family members have converted to their mate's religion despite [at best] lukewarm conviction towards the new creed. And in those cases, the marriages have been long and fruitful with many children and plenty of intimacy.
That's just it though, religion/politics are NOT requirements of mine. What if I met the perfect woman who loved a genre of music I didn't care one way or the other about? But she was only interested in people who enjoyed the same music. What it really be such a travesty to go to concerts with her and give the impression that I enjoyed it? Would that really mess with the intimacy? Would it be a compromise of my principles? A compromise of integrity? "Amazingly screwed up?" The scenario seems laughable to me, but how would it really be any different?
I was raised in a lukewarm religious household. Go to church on the weekends was about as devout as we were. I don't think religion matters at all in a relationship so long as you share the same values and principles when it comes to morality. It's not as though I am anti-religious. I don't go to church only to lampoon the service I was just at. I actually rather enjoy going to church services and hearing the sermons. And I enjoy and find much wisdom in the Bible. I see religion as a more or less positive force in peoples' lives and appreciate the hope and comfort it offers. I just can't quite take the leap myself and accept deep down that a man came back from the dead. Why should such a minor thing get in the way of an otherwise fruitful relationship when everything else (morality, values) I accept wholesale?
My unspoken thought. Haha. And not an insignificant one. It's blasphemy to say this as a young man, but I actually rather enjoy the fact that the very traditional girls discourage pre-marital sex. Takes pressure off of both people in the relationship and makes it much more fulfilling.
That's putting it a little more directly than I was going to do, but you've hit the nail on the head. No different than telling a woman you're an astronaut or a football star to get her attention. In any case, it's building an entire relationship on a lie. That sounds like lots of fun, and a sure key to a successful life to me! (NOT!).
KoB - it sounds like you have a LOT of self-reflection and growing up to do.
I wish you the best on your journey, and peace.
Mtns
I saw a tshirt that said "Jesus did it for the chicks" and thought it was pretty witty.
KoB,
Your new plan is horrible, on every level. Clinging to it will bring you great pain, and my heart goes out to you if you decide to create such horrible experiences for yourself. You are worth being loved for who you actually are, and when you actually see that in more than lip service, you'll find her. You're obviously young, so there is plenty of time for you to learn these lessons the hard way.
Just remember that experience learned second hand is less costly.
With warmth,
Matt
The reason or motivation is not the issue.
The deceit is the issue.
Of al the three qualities, or factors essential to the healthy maintenance of a relationship, (Communication and Respect being the other 2) Trust is the most dangerous one to damage, and the hardest one to repair. If you deceive your potential partner by seeming to trivialise and belittle what she holds dear, in order to achieve an end to your advantage - it will turn on you like a rabid dog.
From your PoV perhaps. But the person betrayed will most definitely question it, and see it differently. And being on the receiving end is different to dishing it out.
Isn't it?
Unfortunately, you might be correct. But is it truly worth it?
And this makes it right and/or justified, because.....?
You're not converting though, are you?
You're living the charade of already being a devout Christian, the motivation being getting a partner.
You really believe this is a solid foundation to build on?
I would like someone to address this...
Your indictments of me are all damning and yes, true. (In the sense that it is deception)
But no one is really offering an alternative solution to the problem. If a future potential partner is religious, and I am totally candid with them, then there simply will be no relationship with them. I can trumpet "to my own self be true" all I want, and talk in rosy terms about her "loving me for who I am," but it's not an appealing proposition.
I'm not ignoring the fact that this is deception and in most peoples' eyes objectionable, but who is hurt? Yes, lying about your feelings towards someone is a terrible thing. You cause immense damage to your partner because it's simply not a sustainable policy, and sooner or later, you'll have to break the truth to them.
But going to church, singing the hymns, and going through the ceremonial motions is not such a bad thing, even if a little voice in your head privately doubts what the preacher is saying. Frankly, it's sustainable as long as you don't have a guilty conscience. And in the long term, it could lead to a wonderful relationship.
I realize that I am unanimously opposed in this thinking. And in bringing this up, I have evidently ruined my integrity in all your eyes. So I will take leave of this discussion, read whatever responses come, and not offer any more responses. I have said all that I can say on the matter and nothing I can say will convince anyone of my position.
Thank you for all your responses though. They have all challenged me and will cause me a lot of reflection on future policy.
at first, I admit, I had to laugh at this dastardly scheme you were cooking up to con church girls!
Then I realized your intention towards these women is honorable and you respect Christianity a good deal. It sounds like you really wish you could make yourself believe in Christianity, but no matter how hard you try, you can't. You enjoy church, read the Bible, live by the moral code, and seek a partner with family values.
If we could wave a magic wand and make you a believer, would you be happy about that? If so, I think you really are a Christian whose just struggling with doubt. If you don't ever want to be a Christian, get out of there dude!
You're looking at this wrong, friend. If a future potential partner is religious and you are not, and she wants someone who is, then there will be no relationship with them. Its a bad fit. At best it will be her+(you+lie) which is going to destroy the relationship eventually.
Imagine you meet a potential partner, and you find out they are a lesbian. If you profess you have no penis, then maybe you can have a few dates. As soon as you try to get more intimate, the pants come off and she will see that you're a liar, and not what she's looking for. Then you've wasted both your times, and played cruel tricks with a woman's heart.
If you are simply yourself, then you'll at least know right away where you stand. What you're doing now is fooling yourself into thinking that there is any kind of future with this kind of girl... that's wishful thinking, its not going to work out, so move on. The more honest you are, the more you'll stop chasing after what is wrong, and you'll find what it right.
With warmth,
Matt
The forum software doesn't allow me to quote quotes (something which I've gradually come to see favorably). The question is, given someone whose music is basically their religion, would it be wrong to create the impression that you were equally committed to the music. The answer is yes. When someone makes it clear what their criteria are for entering a relationship, deceiving them about one or more criteria is very bad.
Your situation really isn't unique. It's hard for most people to meet potential mates. By coincidence, I've just been listening to a medieval Norwegian song in which a young woman complains about the difficulty of finding a suitable young man. Different time, different place, same ol' song.
Basically, it's up to you to figure out how to meet women. The more people you meet, the more women you will meet, and the more women you meet, the sooner you'll find one that you like and who likes you. You can get books, read magazine articles, etc. As a Buddhist in a Christian country, the pool of suitable mates is diminished, but lots of Buddhists have found a way around that.
No. We all make mistakes occasionally, and we've all considered making mistakes that we never got around to committing.
Just one obvious point: Women often feel very flattered if a man they are attracted to is so attracted to them that the man is willing to convert. They are not at all flattered if a man lies to them about being willing to convert. And if the women that you're meeting are as adamant about conversion as you make them sound, you're not getting them to the alter without converting first. Are you prepared to get baptized in order to get married?
What the heck? Then just let them move on. Obviously you aren't compatible anyway, so what's the point about wasting everyone's time and pretending you are Christian? Aren't there any girls who aren't Christian and who don't demand you reciting the lord's prayer before they have dinner with you? That would probably be you target group.
Cheers, Thomas
Actually, I didn't even realise you were looking for a solution.
Were you?
I would presume you're bright, intelligent and cognitive enough to come up with your own solutions.
Then she is not a future potential partner.
Full stop and end of story.
...."as long as...." Hmmmm..... A guilty conscience is a hard one to shut up....
And IF somehow, you manage to appease your conscience, then this means you are compromising your principles. A little bit of your integrity dies, then.
Oh don't be such a drama queen.... Your position is one of desperation, loneliness and one where you are still licking your wounds from the relationship you thought was life-long. You're in "rebound" mode.
I'd stop thinking about having a relationship altogether for a while, and give your heart and mind time to move on and heal better.
It still hurts, doesn't it?
You're still in pain, and the thought of what happened still causes you to wince?
Then stop trying to heal the wound by applying the wrong dressing.
Future policy be damned.
Look at current policy.
Isn't it wonderful to read all the compassionate and caring responses to you when you are, as Fede puts it " Your position is one of desperation, loneliness and one where you are still licking your wounds from the relationship you thought was life-long. You're in "rebound" mode," and how righteously upset everyone has become.
You raise a very important point or two. The first is about how we "package" ourselves when looking for a partner. You offer a scenario where you go along with another's taste in religion (or music) to get closer. I wonder who here has not done something similar: I know I have. I sat through dreadful, German art films with one girlfriend and went dancing to nightclubs I loathed with a boy in Paris - all to get a bit of intimacy, a bit of sex, a bit of human warmth. I've had my hair done, put on my bet clothes, bought expensive cologne, even upgraded my car. The truth is that, when we are in search mode, we will present ourselves in the way that is most likely to be acceptable. We even do it when we go for a job!
I think that your comparison with faking an interest in any other hobby, such as music or stamp-collecting, is entirely apt and that it says much that people appear more upset about religious hypocrisy than philatelical.
You may be interested to learn that Dr William Sargant told me that, while researching his book The Battle for the Mind, his assistant found that young women would "put out" wiuth greater enthusiasm and ease after revivalist meetings, particularly if they had just had a 'religious experience'. Perhaps you should turn you attention to the charismatics.
Finally, I would say that you could use your technique with even greater success if you confessed to it in such a way that the woman understands you: "I know lots of Scripture but I can't say that I believe. I come to church because of the fellowship and to meet people, that's why I read the Bible." She'll see you as needy and a possible convert - irresistible.
I wouldn't want to be with someone who couldn't love me the way I am, I don't see why you'd want to either. That music comparassion you gave - would you really want to date someone who ONLY dated people who loved her type of music??
I don't know, I'm finding it hard to wrap my head around this.
Best of luck to you.
Assuming that you are female (from your screen name), Sapphire, may I ask if you take special pains with your hair and makeup before meeting a lover? Doi you shave your axillae and legs? Similar questions, mutatis mutandis, apply to men.
Have you ever changed your hair colour?
Just some of the ways we conceal our 'real' selves in order to attract others.
So what KoB really needs is a secular humanist with old fashioned family values, raised by sexually liberated parents, and wearing a chastity belt.
Hahahaha. Don't worry, you weren't planning to sell us anything, were you?
Yes, I realize I'm being a closed minded, cold bitch myself
But that doesn't excuse her!!
I understand your point. Yes, I am female. Yes, I wear make up and sometimes straighten my hair (especially to go to work). No, my hair is completely natural colour and almost length (I haven't had it cut in over a year
Even though I get what you're getting at, I feel as though we're dealing with two different things here. You're talking about attracting a mate in the physical sense; especially living in modern society where a lot of pressure and emphasis is put on physical appearance. Yes, perhaps "changing" your physical body to appear more attractive is.. lying.. to the outside world. And yeah, it is deliberate.
But, say if a woman went to the extreme in making herself attractive physically to the opposite sex, someone "fell in love" with her, and then realized she wasn't so beautiful under all the work she had done... What kind of relationship is that in the first place? Beauty may be enough to attract partners in the beginning, but I don't believe it is ever enough, alone, to keep them.
Now, this thread is about lying about a belief. I, personally, don't believe beliefs are a very important factor in deciding which two people are perfect for each other. But the OP, and quite probably the women he is chasing, believe they are. I can't see how a religion would ever be enough to base a relationship on, but it seems as if in his society it is.
My thoughts are: 1, if religion is SUCH a big deciding factor, then he is building future relationships on a lie. From my point of view, the OP and which ever woman he is with at the moment MAY be a perfect match for each other. But when she finds out he wasn't being truthful, that will probably shatter any trust she had for him. And 2, why anyone would want to be with someone who places so much emphasis on being of any kind of religion, if this person wasn't religious themselves (i.e. OP).
Just a thought, instead of expending all this time and energy to appear Christian perhaps you could spend that energy finding a Christian theology you could agree with? Paul Tillich and John Hick both did not believe the Resurrection literally happened and both are respected Christian theologians. That is just off the top of my head and you are much smarter than I. I'm sure you could find something with some enthusiastic research.
Good luck, and BTW, you're dating posts are fun. I hope they continue
I wish I knew what that meant.
P
Mutatis mutandis means something like "if you apply changes where needed" implying that men don't shave the same places, but the same rules apply if you shift the concepts that need shifting around (trade legs and armpits for face and neck).
Oh that's a relief. I thought it was lower down...
P
Look it's probably not ethical but I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Sometimes it's good not to take life to seriously. Try to be slightly more honest with them, tell them there are certain things you agree with and other things you find it hard to come to terms with and explain logicaly why. All women love a project lol
how old are you? how many relationships have you been in? how many times has this actually happened to you?
i've been in several long term relationships and i'm currently in a pretty darn good one. i've learned a few things along the way and the most important one is COMPROMISE.
this is how it works: my partner and i don't agree on everything, not even close. there's a lot of music and movies and beliefs we don't share. if she wants to go to a concert i don't care for, I COMPROMISE. i support it because i support her. she does the same for me. she's a chemical engineer and is really interested by a bunch of stuff i can't even fathom. i try to be interested, but with my lack of understanding it frequently becomes quite boring. i try to understand because i respect her and i'm well aware that she does the same for me about different topics she doesn't care for. she's gone to buddhist outings with me, i've gone to church with her... then we debate later, haha. with respect, it is actually quite fun.
i've been in relationships where my partner wouldn't compromise. a lack of compromise ultimately equals a lack of respect. i wouldn't want that, if i were you. i don't know why you seem to think that any good christian must completely denounce you as a heretic, it's not true.
Bingo!
Ah, there you said it... "good" Christian. That's why I put the quotes around "Christian" most of the time.
Mtns