Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
After death
Hi all
I was chatting with my wife last night about karma and rebirth when she asked, "what happens when we die, according to buddhists". My mouth opened but no words came out as I realised that I had no idea. So, what are the buddhist ideas about the period between death and rebirth? How long (does time even exist?) is the period? How do we "choose" our new incarnation? I've had a quick google but couldn't really find anything that answered these questions.
Peace to all
Ian
I was chatting with my wife last night about karma and rebirth when she asked, "what happens when we die, according to buddhists". My mouth opened but no words came out as I realised that I had no idea. So, what are the buddhist ideas about the period between death and rebirth? How long (does time even exist?) is the period? How do we "choose" our new incarnation? I've had a quick google but couldn't really find anything that answered these questions.
Peace to all
Ian
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
"Generally 49 days, but id you are an enlightened being, or a Boddhisattva this will take much less time."
(A Boddhisattva, or an Arahat is one who returns to a human existence, in spite of being enlightened, to help others who are suffering, reach enlightenment... this effectively means that inspite of an enlightened state, they willingly return to a state of suufering, impermanence and existence)
If we are a human being, we are 'caught' in the cycle of impermanence and suffering. This means that we are 're-born' into one of several different realms of existence, we don't get a choice about how or where we're re-born....
http://www.parami.org/buddhistanswers/when_we_die.htm
This may help.....
I believe I agree with Simon if he's saying what I think he's saying. Which is, the flame is gone - it doesn't exist anymore. Nevertheless, it's effects continue, it's materials still exist. When I die, "I" will cease to exist. My body will disintegrate and be fertilizer. My karma continues (the effects of my actions), the atoms I called my body still go on, but the unity that was me is gone and there is nothing to be reincarnated in the typical sense.
Hard question to answer.
Who knows? We basically have to die to find out the answer. But, I have a decent grasp of the accepted Theravadin answer which I will attempt to explain. I'll do my best to make it simple.
According to Buddhism death is "the temporary end of a temporary phenomenon."
First, what are we? A person. A person is what? Mind and body (which are two separate things in Buddhist thought). What are mind and body? Mind is immaterial and conditioned on many factors, one being the body and another being the 52 mental factors. Body is made up of the four elements: solidity, heat, motion, and space (earth, fire, water, wind). As you can see this thing we call a "person" is a compound of various aggregates.
Anyway, when the conditions for the mind and body cease the mind and body also cease. The body breaks up and we call this death. All of the various parts that make up "the person" go their separate ways. In Buddhist thought consciousness is included as one of these things. Now consciousness is not our "Self" or "us", but it does create kamma (action). One action sets another action in motion (just like elementary physics). A consciousness arises and then ceases. This conditions the next consciousness which arises and ceases which conditions the next....(immaterial cause and effect). At death our consciousness is still active and it causes an action. This action is termed the death consciousness. This in turn leads to the rebirth consciousness which arises when the conditions for it are ripe. (The conditions for birth are basically sperm, egg, and consciousness.)
I know that this may sound crazy, but think about the instantaneous transmissions of things like wireless internet for example. What makes a mind-moment of consciousness much different? Both are energies in some form, both are sent and received, and both are not able to be seen. Neither has a "Self" yet they exist. How can you prove there really is something being "sent" to your computer? Can you see it? No, but you have internet access. In the same way, can you see consciousness? No, but you are aware at the moment aren't you? Is it so inconceivable that this consciousness is the software that is sent to another computer i.e. body?
In the Theravadin thought this process takes only one mind-moment. There is no "thing" that waits. It is a process, a reaction, or flow of consciousness. There is no pause. Just arising and ceasing, arising and ceasing. This life is made up of incalculable mind-moments, always arising and ceasing. The same is true for the next life, always arising and ceasing. This continues until one is able to cease creating kamma - kamma being the natural force which causes this continuous arising and ceasing.
Although you are not the same as you were in a previous life, and you will not be the same in the next, there is a thread linking these all together - so theoretically you can "recall" past lives. Quite similar to the way a computer signal can be tracked from one server to another, in my mind anyway.
This process of rebirth happens without a "soul" or permanent "Self' being involved. Just this arising and ceasing - until Nibbana that is. Nibbana (Cessation) is the destruction of the kilesas (defilements) and the ending of kamma (volitional action).
In essence, death is a conditioned process.
What happens? We die. (One view.)
What happens? At the dissolution of the body, consciousness conditions the arising of a new existence on account of the conditions being ripe due to kamma. (Another view.)
I hope that my explanation was helpful and not just more confusing.
Jason
Fede,
A minor correction - an arahant does not experience another birth, human or otherwise. An arahant is someone who has destroyed the ten fetters that bind the mind to the cycle of rebirth. They are not destined for another rebirth in any of the 31 planes of existence.
Jason
Thank you Jason, I thought that's who I was....!! :crazy:
Corrections for me are always welcome... blessings, my friend!
Jason, you seem to me to be saying that there is no real "I" that passes from life to life but a thread that links many "I"s together. ajani_mgo suggests that we never really die (does that make death the biggest illusion?) but that out karma continues from form to form. To me, this imples that "I" exist. These views appear to contradictory, although I accept that its probably me who just doesn't get it (yet). Is the (my) problem simply that we try to express in words concepts that are inexpressible without enlightenment at which point the question fades to nothingness anyway?
On a related note, why? I mean, why do we have this wheel of suffering? What is the point to achieving nirvana? I guess I'm confused because our western religions give us answers to why, what, when and how whereas it appears that Buddhism doesn't. Or have I already answered that in the last sentence of the previous paragraph?
Peace to all
Ian
....."Thanks DharmaKitten for explaining Simon's candle analogy which at least makes sense now. ......."
Another analogy I heard, with regard to re-birth also concerns a candle, which is one that I find quite interesting...
You have one candle, with a burning flame.
You place another candle next to it.
You light this second candle, with the flame of the first.
You then blow the first candle out.
Is the flame burning the same as the first or a different one....?
".......Is the (my) problem simply that we try to express in words concepts that are inexpressible without enlightenment at which point the question fades to nothingness anyway?"
I believe our means of communication verbally, is flawed, or at least has not progressed or evolved sufficiently to be able to express some of the phenomena we are now intelligent enough to question. or maybe we simply cannot respond because the answer would be beyond the scope of our ptresent comprehension....
"......... I guess I'm confused because our western religions give us answers to why, what, when and how whereas it appears that Buddhism doesn't. Or have I already answered that in the last sentence of the previous paragraph?
Peace to all
Ian
What questions have you posed to our Western religions that have given you definitive 'why, what, when and how' answers? For my part, I have actually discovered that western religion - or Christianity, as I specifically mean - is notoriously vague....
This is one of the reasons I was so attracted to Buddhism... whereas Christianity encourages us to always look outwards and to 'place trust and faith' in something or someone outside of ourselves, Buddhism says 'no, hang on a minute - does this really make sense to you? Check it again.....' And if there ARE answers, we can decide on their validity, truth and how we can make them work for us.
Or am I just confusing you more?
Peace
Ian :wavey:
Interesting thread. I've grabbed some ideas you raised in your last post because they seem to summarize points nicely. And, I'd like to comment on them.
To begin, the "Who knows" holds true for me, too. So, please get your big grain of salt ready while I start rambling.
You said, "ajani_mgo suggests that we never really die (does that make death the biggest illusion?) but that our karma continues from form to form."
First off, death isn't the biggest illusion. Life and death are one big illusion. Death is no more of an illusion than life is. And, what makes this illusion seem true is the "I".
And this connects to something else you said: "Jason, you seem to me to be saying that there is no real "I" that passes from life to life but a thread that links many "I"s together."
This is a really good way to think about the "I." But, the "I" doesn't only work like this from life to life. Rather, the "I" is always created like this. In this "Ian-life" you are living now, there is no real "I" that passes from moment to moment, but rather many "I"s that appear to be linked together. We think the "I" is a constant and continuous thing living for 25 or 45 or 65 years etc., but it is just as brief as the flicker of a flame atop a candle, each self as long as the Mind Moments Elohim spoke of. But, the thread of karma gives them the appearance of being a continuous and stable entity. Karma ties it all together. Which is great for our sense of self. It's what makes the good and bad, love and hate, happy and sad, fun and boring, life and death world of Samsara possible. But, karma also traps us into this illusion, which results in us experiencing suffering. As long as we hold on to the "I" and strengthen it, Samsara and suffering appear and grow stronger. When we weaken it, they weaken. When we drop it, they vanish.
Boy, that was tough to get through. Sorry for adding to any confusion.
gassho
You are correct in saying there is no "I" that passes from life to life. You are incorrect to say that kamma continues from life to life a some form of self. Kamma is a natural process and nothing to be taken as "me" or "mine". Each time the body of a person falls apart the mind believes that "it" is dying. That "it" is our sense of self, our ego, our identity which disappears after death. So do "we" die? No, not in that sense. That is just a mental process that ceases along with the body.
You see, kilesas (greed, hatred, delusion) produce kamma (volitional action). Whether a good or bad action - it produces vipaka (fruit). This process in turn conditions a new life to arise, a new consciousness. It is not "us" though. It is a whole new being. The only thing a meditator will see if they happen to observe their "past lives", however, is the long line of consciousness's that sparked the arising of the next. They may confuse this with a "self" or permanent soul that is them, but this is just an illusion of continuity.
I know, I know, it is all very confusing. I too struggle with many of these questions. I am not qualified to really answer these things because I am still learning myself, but I do hope to impart a sense of how these things are understood (from a Theravavda standpoint I guess). I also argree with you, though, about not worrying about these things. It is true that what really matters is "right now". What we do right now is the most important thing we can ever do. When we are mindful and practice to the best of our abilities our results will reflect that effort.
Fede,
Sorry. You know us virgos, always trying to be right. (me)----> :rant:
:bowdown: Fede :bowdown:
Jason
It is true that one of the 'pillars' of Buddhism is the development of understanding of the illusory nature of what we call "I". This not an easy thing, especially for Westerners, with our cult of the individual and our (irrational and unsupported) faith in the existence of a "soul".
When Digger says that Buddhism is subtle and complex, he has it in one. This is not a simple fairy-story, myth-based faith but a highly developed weaving of many models of the nature of mind, brought together by the understanding of some basics, such as the notion of dependent co-arising.
The Dharma does, however, address the two questions that Digger asks: Suffering arises from the very nature of impermanence and co-arising. Nothing lasts: neither hate nor love, enmity nor friendship, beauty nor ugliness. Birth implies death. The deeper we look, the less permanent and solid do things become. That is just the way things are. Do you really want to go on in ignorance, clinging to what fades away? The Dharma tells us that there is a way out of this round of ignorance giving rise to stress and suffering. It sets out practical means by which we can escape, which is usually called the Noble Eighfold Path. No need to believe it, just need to walk it.
And the result? Well, there are lots of different descriptions of the undescribable because language is, itself, empty of meaning other than that which we ascribe to it. One of the great, hidden, Buddhist classics is Lewis Carroll's Through The Looking Glass. Look at what Humpty Dumpty says about words:
My personal favourite 'description' of the aim is to be found in the last words of Eliot's Four Quartets
"Yes, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said: "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating four things that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. Which four?
"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble virtue that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.
"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble concentration that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.
"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble discernment that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.
"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.
"But when noble virtue is understood & penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood & penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving & attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming."
That is what the Blessed One said. When the One Well-gone had said that, he -- the Teacher -- said further:
Unexcelled virtue, concentration,
discernment, & release:
have been understood by Gotama of glorious stature.
Having known them directly,
he taught the Dhamma to the monks --
the Awakened One
the Teacher who has put an end to suffering & stress,
the One with vision
totally unbound.
~ Anubuddha Sutta
What causes this possessive clinging to what is Painful?
At Savatthi, while seated, Venerable Radha asked the Blessed Buddha:
Venerable Sir, one says: "A Being!" In what way, Sir, is one a being?
One is stuck, Radha, tightly stuck, in desire, lust, delight, & craving
for form; therefore is one called a being! One is trapped, strongly
trapped, in yearning, greed, fascination, & craving for feeling, for
perception, for mental constructions & for consciousness, in so far
as this violent force of clinging is active, is one called a being... !!!
Imagine, Radha, some small boys & girls are playing with sand castles.
So long as they are not devoid of lust, desire, affection, attraction,
delight, thirst, greed, & craving for those sand castles, then they will
like them, play with them, treasure them, and treat them possessively...
But as soon as the small boys & girls lose their lust, desire, affection,
attraction, delight, thirst, greed, & craving for those sand castles, then
they scatter them with their hands & feet, bulldoze them, shatter them,
and eradicate them! So too should you, Radha, scatter form, destroy it,
shatter it, eradicate it by practicing for the stilling of craving for form.
You should scatter feeling, scatter perception, scatter constructions, &
scatter consciousness, demolish it, shatter it, put it out of action, by the
practicing of the destruction of craving. For the destruction of craving,
Radha, is peace, is freedom, is bliss, is Nibbana...
~ Samyutta Nikaya 23:2 III 190
Belief in an Ego is the Strongest Bondage linking to Death!
At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said:
Bhikkhus, the uninstructed ordinary person regards form as self, or self as
possessing a form, or form as inside self, or self as inside a frame of form...
This, bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed ordinary person, who is bound by
bondage to form, who is bound by inner and outer bondage, who neither
sees the near shore nor the far shore, who grows old in bondage, who dies
in bondage, who goes from this world to the next other world in bondage...
Such one regards feeling, perception, mental construction & consciousness
as self or self as having feeling, perception, construction & consciousness,
or feeling, perception, construction & consciousness as being inside a self,
or a self as hidden inside feeling, perception, construction & consciousness!!!
Such one, Bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed ordinary person who is bound by
bondage, by clinging, by inner chains to feeling, perception, mental construction,
and consciousness... Such one, Bhikkhus, bound by both inner & outer bondage,
who neither sees this near shore nor the far shore, who grows old in bondage,
who dies in bondage, will pass on in bondage to the next world still in bondage!!!
~ Samyutta Nikaya 22:117 III 165
"I am a bear of very little brain, and long words bother me...!"
How I DO really wish I could get to grips with it all....*sigh*
I think I'm getting one of my headaches....... :buck:
Perhaps this one will be more helpful:
Friends:
No Agent nor Actor exists only Impersonally Acting Processes Unfolds!
Question: Who is the Creator ??? Answer: Nobody is the Creator of anything !!!
Q: What then, is creating ??? A: Ignorance and Craving is creating !!!
Q: What is ignorance & craving creating ? A: Ignorance & craving creates Suffering !!!
Question: Who Perceives ??? Answer: Nobody Perceives anything !!!
Q: What then, is perceiving ??? A: The Perception process itself perceives !!!
Q: What do perception perceive ??? A: Form, sound, smell, taste, touch & thoughts !!!
Question: Who Feels ??? Answer: Nobody Feels anything !!!
Q: What then, is feeling ??? A: The process of Feeling itself feels !!!
Q: What do Feeling feel ??? A: Feeling feels pleasure, pain & neutrality !!!
Question: Who is the Knower ??? Answer: Nobody is the Knower of anything !!!
Q: What then, is Knowing ??? A: The state of Knowledge itself knows !!!
Q: What is knowledge knowing ??? A: Knowledge knows: Such is Pain, cause of Pain, Such is the End of Pain, & Way to End all Pain !!!
~ From a Q & A by Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
You took the words out of my mouth...
-bf
P.S. I going to read Elohim's last post - I think he re-wrote it into baby-talk for me.
-bf
Well, I had to look up PMSL... and I still don't know if I got it right, Mr. Cryptic! But, I think I do.
I don't know if there is a special clique or not. I don't believe so. I know most of what I post out here is just plain foolishness - but it does seem to stir the pot! I should keep my fingers closed more often...
In some respects, I think there are people out here a lot more knowlegable OR... they have spent so much time pouring over this stuff that it becomes second nature. Just like people who have read the King James version of the Bible for years - you become accustomed to knowing what something means because you've spent months deciphering it.
I think I'm definitely going to be a "lay" Buddhist. Take the simple things and work on them from there - because when it gets into all of this:
<in my best Cheech and Chong voice> "Wow, man... I wonder if the RED I see is the same RED you see, man?
I'm sitting here spending the next half an hour trying to re-attach my jaw to my head.
But I'll respond to your posts if you would quit emailing me those pictures of yourself. I told you - "Yes, they're nice and your flexibility is truly amazing... but I really don't dig the chickens, my friend."
-bf
Now this, I understand!! I can now take off my big conical hat with the 'D' on it, and return to my desk! If all my lessons are in unjoined-up writing, in big letters, with lots of colourful pictures (thanks BF!) there may just be hope for me yet!! :rockon: :bigclap:
Really? I was getting stumped on my first attempt at reading this. For example...
Question: Who is the Creator??? Answer: Nobody is the Creator of anything.
I'm cool with this. I can totally understand this concept.
Q: What then, is creating??? A: Ignorance and craving is creating.
WTF? If nobody is the creator of anything, how does Ignorance and Craving create anything? Especially Ignorance. Craving I could kind of see if we completely remove the initial question and we look at this question all by itself - that is to say, "we" create or allow cravings - and we know what happens when we crave, as a Buddhist.
Q: What is ignorance and craving creating?
This one is self-explanatory, given the reasoning of our assumptions with Q:#2.
I just didn't see what Question: had to do with Q2 or Q3!
-bf
I give up!
I'll be offline during the weekend, so have a great one.
See?
I'm just here to test you.
I'm a general pain in the ass - and I seem to give you the same trouble I do most people
-bf
Many people talk about entering the bardo after you die. In truth, we are always in the bardo state. There are four bardos (or six, depending on how you count them) that are taught. We're in the bardo of life at the moment. At the moment of death, we enter the bardo of dying. When we are completely dead, we enter the bardo of the intermediate state. Then as we approach a new life we enter the bardo of becoming, which culminates in the bardo of life, completing the circle. Some consider the dream state and the meditative state to be separate bardos as well. These states are all similar in that they are to be all considered to be as dreams that we are dreaming.
In truth, there is no continuity of life. We die and take rebirth constantly from moment to moment, like the frames in a film. I know that's a hard one to get, but it's what I've been taught. It's due to our self, which only exists in relation to everything else, seeming to be permanent due to our deluded belief in "self" and "other".
So what is passed on from life to life? Many have said our karma, which really isn't "ours", just a natural phenomenon. However, in Tibetan Buddhism, we are taught that the consciousness moves from life to life. That may beg the question of how the consciousness is able to exist without a brain, but that's a whole other story!
It is a very complex subject and one that is difficult to get our minds around. Better not to spend a lot of time worrying about it. All things become clearer with practice! I mean, that's why they call it "practice", after all! I might also recommend a video called "The Tibetan Book of the Dead" which does a really nice job of presenting these concepts. You can get it from Snow Lion.
Palzang
P.S. Elohim, was with you all the way, had smoke pouring out of my ears contimplating all that you said, and your little cartoon depiction of the "me and you "had me laughing histerically for the first time in a long time, cheers and well done.
P.S.S. We are all born dying.
digger, i hope that you find these book references helpfull. may peace and understanding be your guide on your quest for answers.
I'm glad it gave you a good laugh!
Jason
Sorry I've been away for so long. A combination of illness (recovered now) and a new, difficult project at work.
Should be be able to let go of the desire to let go? Probably, but why not start with the grasping you can change? Perhaps, after much practice, we sit lightly even to the apparent reason we practise at all.
Then all we may be left with Milarepa's final teaching to Gampopa: the thick calluses on his buttocks.
Well, the Buddha did. He told a whole series of stories of his past lives, which we call the Jataka Tales. The point of them is that the seeds you sow in this life will bear fruit in future lives, so if we want to be happy in the future, we need to be careful what seeds we're sowing now. That's why it's important to think about such matters in this life.
Palzang
How did the Buddha know what he did in his past lives?
Would a clone of a human have past lives?
And do all organisms even cells and such have past lives?
I favor the idea that once you're dead, your dead. That's it. No more. Nothing carries on to another body or heavenly realm.
You can talk about rebirth in a non-literal sense of, well, "we are reborn every moment" and such, but as far as actually being reborn in another body after I die--I just don't even see how it is even consistant with the notion that what we call "I" is empty of inherent existance . . .
I agree. I believe in rebirth in a sense that I am not exactly the same as I was one hour ago or even five minutes. The Universe is in a constant flux and state of change never the same as it was. Humans are no different.
The Buddha was able to know his past lives because he realized the true nature of all phenomena. He said that if you want to know your past lives, just look in the mirror because it's all right there. And actually "you" aren't reborn. That is a misconception. There isn't a personality that is transferred from life to life. It is, rather, the karma from this life (as well as previous lives) that cause rebirth. It's not like the transmigration of souls or anything like that. However, there is a continuity present, what we might call consciousness. That may seem paradoxical, but it's really not.
To remain oblivious of our future lives is to virtually guarantee that we will have suffering and unhappiness in them. Is it, in fact, what we have been doing for countless lifetimes. That we have been reborn as a human in this life, and what's more, that we have had the precious opportunity to hear and practice the Dharma is a chance we don't want to blow by spacing out or dismissing the teachings of the Buddha out of hand. The truth is the Dharma gives us the opportunity to be in the driver's seat as far as whether we experience happiness or suffering in this and future lives as well as the opportunity to end the suffering of not only ourselves but of countless other sentient beings whose only connection to the Dharma is through us. Who can say when we will have this precious opportunity again, if ever?
Palzang
"You can talk about rebirth in a non-literal sense of, well, "we are reborn every moment" and such, but as far as actually being reborn in another body after I die--I just don't even see how it is even consistant with the notion that what we call "I" is empty"
I don't understand that either. And whilst I hear the words that it is the karma from a previous life that causes rebirth, I still don't understand how this sits together with "no self". Can someone please help?
i take it to be the process of the universe being in constant flux - but that's just physical aggregates and i just assume mental aggregates end when their physical ones do.