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sakkaya-ditthi

seeker242seeker242 ZenFlorida, USA Veteran
edited July 2010 in Philosophy
<dt>sakkaya-ditthi [sakkaaya-di.t.thi]:</dt><dd>Self-identification view. The view that mistakenly identifies any of the khandha as "self"; the first of the ten fetters (samyojana). Abandonment of sakkaya-ditthi is one of the hallmarks of stream-entry (see sotapanna).</dd>
Can anyone speak to what this really means? Does it mean the abandonment of what we perceive as "self". In other words, is it the realization of "all things are not self"? If so, then how can the below still be present, are they not also born of the self view? Or is it just the belief that "all things are not self" and not necessarily a full realization?
4. Kama-raga, sensual craving

5. Vyapada, ill will

6. Rupa-raga, craving for substance

7. Arupa-raga, craving the insubstantial

8. Mana, conceit

9. Uddhacca, restlessness

10. Avijja, ignorance
In other words, how can things like conceit still be present after there is no longer any "self-view"?

Comments

  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited July 2010
    In my experience, sakkaya-ditthi is a state where one still thinks that self is real... as though there is something composed of the aggregates. The abandoning of this view is to release it from the understanding of how the view works, but does not necessarily mean that one will not experience karma that pulls their mind back into old patterns.

    For instance, someone who has abandoned subjective clinging might still experience conceit, but once the energy of the karma has subsided, move back to anatta. The way I have seen it is that it doesn't require significant focused intention to achieve a state of empty self once sakkaya-ditthi is abandoned, rather the empty self view is the natural view, and while something like a stubbed toe might pull one out of it, when our pain settles, we are naturally empty again, even seeing the hilariousness to our aggressive outburst (or conceit for instance)
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited July 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    In other words, how can things like conceit still be present after there is no longer any "self-view"?

    seeing the 'self-view' is different from being without 'self-view'
    one who sees self view falls back to self-view again and again that is why the other seven fetters are there
    his actual practise begins from this point onwards

    one who is without self view (arahat) do not fall back to self-view again and that is why there is no more fetters
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