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Claiming "I have attained Enlightment" is incorrect?
seeker242
ZenFlorida, USA Veteran
I happened across this elsewhere (SN 56.11) and someone posed an interesting question:
If it is not correct to claim "I have attained enlightenment", then how do you reconcile the fact that it appears that the Buddha himself DID claim that he attained enlightenment?
SN 56.11 Piyadassi Thera translation
Is the Buddha himself not claiming he has attained enlightenment here?
If it is not correct to claim "I have attained enlightenment", then how do you reconcile the fact that it appears that the Buddha himself DID claim that he attained enlightenment?
SN 56.11 Piyadassi Thera translation
"As long as my knowledge of seeing things as they really are, was not quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths,[3] I did not claim to have realized the matchless, supreme Enlightenment, in this world with its gods, with its Maras and Brahmas, in this generation with its recluses and brahmanas, with its Devas and humans. But when my knowledge of seeing things as they really are was quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths, then I claimed to have realized the matchless, supreme Enlightenment in this world with its gods, with its Maras and Brahmas, in this generation with its recluses and brahmanas, with its Devas and humans. And a vision of insight arose in me thus: 'Unshakable is the deliverance of my heart. This is the last birth. Now there is no more re-becoming (rebirth).'"
Is the Buddha himself not claiming he has attained enlightenment here?
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The difference is that he then put his money where his mouth was, and managed to prove it through his teachings, example and demonstration of how clearly he had realised Things As They Really Are.
I think he also had to 'prove himself' on more than one occasion. This he simply did by basically demonstrating flaws, errors, misconceptions and arrogance in the observations of others.
So much as he might have claimed it - he also lived it, and judging by the followers he accrued, he was living testimony many times over.
Those who proclaim themselves enlightened, had better be prepared, willing and completely able to do the same.
So far...as far as I have seen in this forum, anyway - there have been no takers.
According to?
Diamond Sutra
Chapter 9.
I don't think it is possible to limit what a Buddha can or not do as if we were making a list.
Its not a matter of what can or cannot be done, or what is correct. Its about saying things when it is skillful to do so. Depicting attainments is unskillful, as it draws attention to the person, rather than the dharma. In the context of the Buddha, he was describing the nature of the path he was teaching and establishing credibility with his audience. Now, with a well described dharma there is no need to establish credence, as the dharma is self-luminous with rich tradition.
So, its not a matter of "we cannot describe our attainments, because it is wrong" but "we do not describe our attainments because it is unneeded and therefore unskillful."
In my opinion of course.
With warmth,
Matt
Thought I'd add. See the guy in my avatar? Ajahn Chah, decided to tell people he was an Arhat... (Arahat? how's that spelled? Thnx.) close to his death.
It didn't do much good. There's a video about that story on Youtube.
Or it's like:
Fish # 1: "I just got a hook in my mouth and it REALLY hurts!"
Fish # 2: "No it doesn't, you're just imagining things, hooks really don't exist."
Fish # 1: "Ok, that is nice... But that doesn't help because my mouth still hurts..."
Fish # 2: LOL.
Fish # 1:
The Buddha certainly had the requirement to tell people that he attained Nibbana but he did not do it out of personal interests, to be respected, to be thought highly of or for material benefits. He had to tell as the teacher of the Dhamma. I don't think we have such a requirement nowadays, generally speaking.
Yes, as far as I know.
At least, they are to me....
Cheers, Thomas
source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/khantipalo/wheel130.html
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Its not skillfull in itself, Unless it is done to help others into correct paths.
Patrul Rinpoche once was tired of his big celebrations and wanted to go somewhere quiet, upon roaming around in the mountians like a hermit, some lady seen him and asked if he would work for them, in exchange they would give shelter and food. Great Rinpoche is said to have agreed to even cleaning the excrement of this village. Later hearing that thier teacher was about to give a teaching, the monks came to the woods looking for Rinpoche, and the lady was shocked that the man cleaning the latrine was a pandita Patrul Rinpoche. AWESOME ! this is what enlightened people do...
I would not consider this motive to be enlightened, as it is self-centric. Celebrations, noise, quiet, fecal cleaning, teaching... would all be the same... boundless acts of compassion without personal striving. Perhaps you mean "this is what 'humble' people do"?
With warmth,
Matt
I agree with what Richard says here, and I would even go so far as to say that "I have achieved Enlightenment" is probably the last thing a truly enlightened person would say. So if anyone ever says that, you know they're almost certainly under a delusion; and if you yourself are ever tempted to say it, you know you're not enlightened yet.
That said: I want to express concern for a member of this forum, who recently proclaimed that he (or she) was enlightened. Some of the responses this person received were wise and compassionate Buddhist responses, while some others seemed to have a mocking, indignant, even angry spirit to them. (I felt myself gravitating toward indignation as I read the claims this person was making, so I want to make it clear I'm pointing the finger at myself!)
Later, after contemplating the situation some more, I thought: when I step outside the knee-jerk emotional reaction, and look ahead a few weeks in that person's life, I can envision them coming to their senses and realizing they were deluding themselves about being "enlightened."
At that point, the individual might wish to return to this forum again, but to do so might entail embarrassment for them. Facing those who mocked and ridiculed them might be too difficult, and as a consequence they might avoid coming back to the forum. Thus, they would lose the benefit of this community, effectively "cast out of the tribe" by scorn. And all because they wanted to share a wonderful experience they had (even if it might not have been exactly what they thought it was).
Realizing this, my next thought was: what is the "correct" response to a claim of Enlightenment? How, if such a thing should happen again in the future, can we be better prepared, and offer a more Buddhist response?
We can agree that mockery and scorn are not in the spirit of Buddhism. Compassion and wisdom are undoubtedly more skillful ways of handling such a claim, but it seems to me the person might need some "tough love" (like Richard's Zen stick!) to help jolt them back to reality. But how to practice tough love without crossing the line into negativity? There's the rub!
Anyway, these are some of the questions I've been asking myself in the wake of this experience. If anyone agrees that such questions are important to ask, please feel free to chime in with some additional solutions: for I haven't yet figured it all out, and welcome wise and thoughtful input.
Whats most important is that the people with the dharma and its message transmit it properly and as related to the person learning. I have been trying to do my best. in a spirit of jolting or questioning my only aim is right view and to practice dilligence and giving to a community of buddhist practitioners.
"How would the Buddha respond" seems to be a good rule of thumb in such situations. The Buddha's questions often "jolted" people too, but he always phrased them in a spirit of compassion and lovingkindness, and rarely made enemies thereby. That's what was so amazing about the Buddha: he wasn't just the wisest man in the world, he was also the kindest and most compassionate as well.
Without that grounding in sila (moral purity in thought, word, and deed), I don't think true Enlightenment can occur.
hell i love you all and nothings real....i may even be enli******
Ah, the good ol' "fake it till you make it"...
If they are, they don't need my validation.
If they are not, they don't need my validation.
Either way I reserve the right to be thoroughly amused. I might even laugh.
Wan't the old saying something like, if you meet a buddha on the road laugh at him [or her as the case may be]?
If you meet the Buddha, kill him. - Koan by Linji
Thinking about Buddha is delusion, not awakening. One must destroy preconceptions of the Buddha. Zen master Shunryu Suzuki wrote in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind during an introduction to Zazen, "Kill the Buddha if the Buddha exists somewhere else. Kill the Buddha, because you should resume your own Buddha nature."
And why would anyone these days want to proclaim it? I can think of just two reasons: because they are up themselves (which would mean they have not reached the goal); because they want to teach and think they will be able to get more followers and success by being regarded as having reached the goal. But why would they want to teach when the words of the Buddha are available? Their teaching should be limited to pointing towards what the Buddha said, and no more.
This is the way.
Oh yeah... kill the buddha!
Thank you for the correction.
I first read Roshi's book in 1970 when I was a student in Soto. The saying was twisted to tease you.
Best regards
P
I think Zendo's post was very thoughtful on this and mirrored my own experience, though luckily I didn't contradict them outright. I think there's no doubt that they'd had some meaningful spiritual exerience, but they were assuming an amalgam of spiritual traditions including some Buddhism. The thing that helps is patience of course, but also a willingness to explain an clarify.
No, he didn't.
If only it were that easy. The apiration to Enlightnment is a good thing, after all, it's good to have such a positive aim. Just thinking it - well I don't know about you but every day I encounter examples of why I am not Enlightened - my unskillfulness with circumstance, my lack of understanding of others, my misjudgements, the constant fog on my peceptions of the best course to pursue, my inadequate and not boundless compassion, my anger,etc etc It's a long game....:)
A master was once unmoved by the complaints of his disciples that, though they listened with pleasure to his parables and stories, they were also frustrated for they longed for something deeper. To all their objections he would simply reply: "You have yet to understand, my friends, that the shortest distance between a human being and truth is a story."