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poker - a way of life
ThailandTom
Veteran
Hello again virtual sangha 
As some of you may know, I left my home country of England about 5 months ago for Thailand. The laws in Thailand prevent foreigners, (farang) from being able to land pretty much any job title. There are very few exceptions where people work illegally, teach English or maybe own a business. I do not have the resources to run a business and think it would lead to much suffering as there is a lot of stress and negative aspects to it. I am not cut out at the moment in my life to teach english to children or adults for that matter and it is near impossible to land a job doing anything else. I have been a poker player for 5 years or so online and 'live'. Now the basic fundamentals of poker are to lie to your players, to want to win, for there to be winners and losers, money and greed. These are all seen as unskillful within buddhism but it is my only source of income. I have managed to sustain a life doing so for a few months and am fully aware that when I lose I am unhappy and feel bad. Also gambling is illegal in thailand but I would like to hear other peoples views on the matter if you have any, thanks tom
As some of you may know, I left my home country of England about 5 months ago for Thailand. The laws in Thailand prevent foreigners, (farang) from being able to land pretty much any job title. There are very few exceptions where people work illegally, teach English or maybe own a business. I do not have the resources to run a business and think it would lead to much suffering as there is a lot of stress and negative aspects to it. I am not cut out at the moment in my life to teach english to children or adults for that matter and it is near impossible to land a job doing anything else. I have been a poker player for 5 years or so online and 'live'. Now the basic fundamentals of poker are to lie to your players, to want to win, for there to be winners and losers, money and greed. These are all seen as unskillful within buddhism but it is my only source of income. I have managed to sustain a life doing so for a few months and am fully aware that when I lose I am unhappy and feel bad. Also gambling is illegal in thailand but I would like to hear other peoples views on the matter if you have any, thanks tom
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Comments
If I may ask, why did you move to a place where you knew you wouldn't be able to legally make a living, and why did the Thai government let you do so in the first place? You could always ask for alms.
Mtns
When I left here for thailand 5 months ago, I was even then a different person to what I am now. I have changed a lot in this short space of time. I left the UK in a fluster, I left in a hurry and mainly without any real sound ideas of what to do with my life. Most people would suggest to me then that I would fail and be back before I knew it. In fact the opposite has happened, this place has brought me down to earth and humbled my inner person.
Tom
You don't have to lie, you can simply stay silent.
I watched something about knowing ourselves last night. It mentioned how it takes time to form a relationship and love other people, for example friends or family. We rarely give time to get to know and love ourselves, we do anything but this. Watch tv, listen to music, surf the net etc. So I decided I am going to go on a self retreat for a week or something up into the hills of Hua Hin. Maybe this could lead to me taking buddhism to the ultimate extreme and this will be my way of life...
Tom
As long as you keep your five precepts while playing in the tournament, what is the harm?
i am pretty uninterested in sports/competitions of any sort, but that is mostly because i dislike the effect they have on me. if i win, it's all, "yes! i am awesome! in your face!" if i lose, it's like, "this sucks... woe is me..." neither outcome is very helpful, as i'm sure you already know. but i do wonder, since you depend on gambling for income, if it might be possible to escape this cycle with effort.
it also reminds me of a few quotes from The Writings of Nichiren Daishonin:
"Suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy. Regard both suffering and joy as facts of life,"
"A truly wise man will not be carried away by any of the eight winds: prosperity, decline, disgrace, honor, praise, censure, suffering, and pleasure. He is neither elated by prosperity nor grieved by decline."
I am truly contemplating a very different life as my understanding broadens, my idea on life and how it should be lead changes.
Just as the more you realise you are suffering, the more the need to get out of it increases..
fiveballs, poker is less of a gamble than any other game in a casino. roulette, blackjack, slots whatever is mainly luck. There is a slight bit of skill involved with knowing what you are doing, but at least 90% luck. With poker, you do not play 'the house', but each other. the casino or internet site takes 5-10% of the buy infor any game from each player, this is how they make their money. But with poker, it is a lot to do with mathematics and skill, also of course luck is involved, but at a far less ratio.
I have found by looking on the net, there are loads of professional poker players who come to live in thailand as the cost of living is so low and the country itself is relaxed for many aspects.
The way I make money is I play 'double or nothing' games. I buy in for maybe $21.80 to a table of 10 people, ($1.80 going to the site) and once 5 people lose their chips and drop out, the 5 remaining double their 20 dollars to 40.
As I have played for many years, this is an easy way to make a profit daily and not really much of a thrill or source of stress, so it is pretty laid back..
There was one case where someone on the inside managed to hack so he could see peoples cards, but to make the most money doing that, he played what is known as 'cas game format'. People think this means that there is money on the line, this is true, but there is money on the line in every other format. cash games are you buy in with a certain amount and bet with that money and leave when you like. as apposed to tournaments which are what i play, you buy in and leave when you get knocked out. You can win a fixed prize depending where you finish, or in the case of double or nothings, 5 people finish with equal pries and 5 with nothing.
It is not easy making a living from poker, it is just the specific situation I am in. I have been playing the game properly for over 5 years, I play low stakes and live in a country where the english pound is 48 times stronger than the native currency. There are days where you will lose, but you limit your losses by playing low stakes and within your ability. I probably win on double or nothing games 7-8 times out of every 10 times I play.
What my lama advised a animal raising woman was that sometimes your livelyhood depends on doing something that is not great but you have to do it to survive. In that case you make the best of it. For example treat the animals well say prayers for them. In your case I would try to be mindful of the intoxicating aspect and use it as on the spot practice to see how convincing the thinking mind is but that all dharmas are dreams... Your thoughts disappear in a puff of smoke when the game is over. Maybe I'm expressing this wrong but I ain't no lama <sigh> ah well
And try to use your livelyhood to support dharma practice. Even if your circumstances are not perfect today you may create seeds that will sprout later or even in other lifetimes.
But to answer your question poker might create a little bit of suffering for people. Same as apple computer, maybe a bit of cherishing our possessions. But that is not your intention to throw some addict in the gutter. Your intention is to make a living!
120 years ago you couldn't make an income as a professional therapist. Or a pro athlete. The world is always changing and now you can make a living playing games of skill.
</sigh>
I think if you are bad at poker and you keep going back then you have a problem. Gamblers are always cast in a bad light unlike investors who are seen as 'planning for their future'. Yet, i have seen many investors who lose money time and time again on speculative companies hoping for the big payoff. To me, they are one and the same. And truth be told, they are necessary in a functioning marketplace (or casino) so that others can make money. In stocks, for every buyer there is a seller and in poker, for every winner, there must be a loser (s). That is the sad fact. Ideally, we would all be in vocations that are constructive or contribute some value in this world, but unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.
i completely understand your point, however, it seems to me that you have two options here:
1) do something else. obvious solution to your problem, not necessarily easy or feasible (as you previously stated).
2) try and make the best of it. work on decreasing the joy and the misery and becoming as neutral as possible. this is also, not an easy task, but the choice is really up to you.
if you find you are stuck in this career for the moment, then work to make it less harmful for you. if you can get out, do so. you have to be careful not to aim too high too quickly when it comes to buddhism. everyone has a starting point. feeling trapped and depressed about your livelihood is not helpful. i still say, try to make the best of it for now and work toward a different career. don't sacrifice this moment by thinking about how you wish it would be different. if you don't try, then you won't know what you really can achieve with your practice. maybe it really is possible to just enjoy the game, win or lose.
all i'm saying is, if it's your only option, it's worth a shot.