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Basic confusions
Tanda
Explorer
What sparked my interest in Buddhism is story about Goenka's cure from migraine through Vipassana which in turn made him start teaching it. The more I read about Buddhism the more I feel attracted but at another level I feel a blunt U turn....
It is all about other world. This nirvana in a faraway world after stupendous efforts, if you survive the myriad of teaching by various schools, at times even conflicting. In the mean time you negate all your visibly valid concepts of money,market, relations and power which alone will see you through in your life.
Even to choose Buddhist path and scale down your worldly entanglement, if not renounce you need to believe or have faith in the validity and worth of Nirvana, rebirth etc etc. But then they are Bhudha's teaching and not my valid concepts.
It boils down to be a conflict between a teachings of a man who earned his knowledge after painful efforts and a novice who timidly ventures out of his ignorance.
But then is not this ignorance that is successfully explored by some religions promising attractive things in after life or threatening about hell?
How do you know Bhuddism is the path and it is valid for you? I am confused. In my life i am a loser because I do not join the corrupt and practical people but live by certain principles. I have even decided to join Vipassana course. Now a voice in me rebukes me: Are you trying to bury your sense of failures and lack of market-smartness in to Vipassana? Is it that it suits to seek a far away goal and invest all your remaining life to esacpe from your present and future failures?
It is all about other world. This nirvana in a faraway world after stupendous efforts, if you survive the myriad of teaching by various schools, at times even conflicting. In the mean time you negate all your visibly valid concepts of money,market, relations and power which alone will see you through in your life.
Even to choose Buddhist path and scale down your worldly entanglement, if not renounce you need to believe or have faith in the validity and worth of Nirvana, rebirth etc etc. But then they are Bhudha's teaching and not my valid concepts.
It boils down to be a conflict between a teachings of a man who earned his knowledge after painful efforts and a novice who timidly ventures out of his ignorance.
But then is not this ignorance that is successfully explored by some religions promising attractive things in after life or threatening about hell?
How do you know Bhuddism is the path and it is valid for you? I am confused. In my life i am a loser because I do not join the corrupt and practical people but live by certain principles. I have even decided to join Vipassana course. Now a voice in me rebukes me: Are you trying to bury your sense of failures and lack of market-smartness in to Vipassana? Is it that it suits to seek a far away goal and invest all your remaining life to esacpe from your present and future failures?
0
Comments
Your post seems dramatic and rushed to me, as if there is some immediate action you need to take, or decision you need to make, or else all will be doomed! Maybe that is not the case, but if it is, rest assured that everything is okay right now. You can slow down and everything will be okay.
When you say "it is all about another world," I think that is a misconception. I'm totally not enlightened, haha, but any time I look at Nirvana I see something very...real about it. Often it's called being awakened instead of enlightened. It's like, you just know how things are. I think when I was younger I saw it more in terms of a movie..like the hero goes on this great and perilous journey filled with struggles and pain and moments of hopelessness, but at the end he reaches his goal and lives happily ever after. I think in a sense, yes it does take tremendous effort, but not because it has to. It's different for everybody, and a very personal experience. And I don't think it can be achieved by saying, "okay that's it, I'm going to work at becoming enlightened and not stop until I have achieved it!" That may sound kind of like what the Buddha did...but I think it's much more subtle than that. It's all about letting go--not attaining things.
I hope that made a bit of sense. Another point I wanted to make was how important it is in Buddhism to understand what you're doing. Always question the teachings. Never have faith in something just because somebody said it. You have to find out the truth for yourself, and fortunately there are many wise people who have helped to show us the way to these discoveries. So don't look at yourself as a novice that ventures timidly out of his ignorance. Look at yourself as a fellow human being, capable of making his own way, his own decisions, who of course needs help but in the end always owns up to his own life. There's no blind following in Buddhism. If at the beginning, all you have is an understanding that, "hmm, when I meditate and just watch my breathing, I get a sense of peace...I wonder why that is..." then that's great. You don't have to believe in nirvana or rebirth or anything. The idea is that these truths will be made aparant to you in the course of your practice. And if they don't, well then don't believe in them.
How do I know the Buddhist path is right and valid for me? It's really just experience. It's just something I know and have faith in because I've seen it work. I've seen how much happier and peaceful I am, I've seen through the paper-thin walls that society builds up, laid in bed and felt my heart beating and realized how fragile I was, seen how things change over time and how nothing will last forever, seen some of the ways my mind works... I liken meditation to "listening," lately. See, I don't even really do everything I'm "supposed to," as a good Buddhist. I don't even consider myself a Buddhist, to be honest. I just use the teachings in ways that work for me, find things that work and make sense to me, and practice them. I used to think maybe this was bad, and I am doing something wrong, but I know I'm not. I'm just doing what's right for me.
And in the same way, you need to just do what's right for you. Don't turn to Buddhism as something to save you from being a loser in life... It's not an escape. It's not a trophy or badge to be worn.
I actually recommend you read a book on Buddhism, if you're interested. Something intended for beginners so maybe you'll have a better grasp on what it's really all about. I think you might be surprised at how friendly and non-judgemental it is.
Anyway, best of luck, feel free to ask more questions!
Not so.
There is no 'need', compunction or obligation to ascribe to, or believe anything. That's up to you, to explore, investigate and to verify for yourself....But nobody's going to hold a gun to your head, and tell you you MUST do something....
Conflict....in what way, exactly? The two seem pretty similar to me....
What threats have you found in Buddhism which perturb you?
The only promises are the ones you make to yourself.
Again, this self-deprecating vocabulary. How does living by certain principles make you a 'failure'...?
Yes, you probably are.
But I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Because I would say that's probably the motivation for quite a few neo-Buddhists.
In time, you shed that concept as well, and practice, simply because you practice.
Don't be too anal about it.
Stay open, and enjoy the experience.
As to your characterization of Buddhism, most of what you say could not be further from the truth about Buddhism. It is not even a "religion" in the generally understood sense. It is a way of being-in-the-world.
I don't think it is up to anyone here to go into specifics or go to any lengths to correct your misconceptions about Buddhism. Do some basic internet research on it and come back and discuss it with us some more.
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/
I have no idea where you have been getting your information about Buddhism, but much of your characterization is incorrect.
Have you even read about the life of Siddhartha Gautama and the basic concepts of Buddhism? If so, where?
To Federica’s quote And SherabDorje’s quote, ”….
<o></o>
Let me explain that I neither meant any threats nor any characterisation. My indirect reference was to a certain other religion which I did not to name here.
I am sure you will agree that state of ignorance is very vulnerable. if you know the right path then you are not ignorant-or you are ignorant to a lesser degree. See the paradox? Is it not true that some fanatical sects/ cults find support because of this ignorance.
I repeat I don’t feel threatened but yes there is confusion about differences between different schools of Vipassana and varied practices of Buddhism.
Please read my posts in the context of my conflict between the idea of living, like many people do, an ordinary life and die an ordinary death or pursue a path when I am not clear about my own motives.
Looks like my loud thinking sounded inappropriate to you. If so, my apologies.
Yes I had been reading a lot in the internet for the past three months. Being an Indian and Hindu I have read about Buddha but I am also dealing with my nihilistic stream.
<o></o>
To Christina’s quote: “
Christina, reading about Vipassana on the internet, I started a 20-30 minute of breathing mediation practice of my own, and I DID get a sense of peace you point out. But then I suspected, my mind is indulging in self- patting,” Good boy, started a good job, some day you will get Nirvana. For now ignore your failures.” Oh, the incurable doubtist!
I'm not digging or probing, and I don't expect or want you to elaborate if you feel discomfort. I'm just illustrating a point regarding those who have followed a Theistic religion (or it's all they've ever known) and imposing certain Christian concepts onto Buddhism, because they don't get the "No God, No sin, No eternal damnation" concepts of Buddhism.
I hope we can be supportive if you need us to be, and I'm sure if there is confusion in your mind regarding the different schools of Buddhism, members here will be very pleased to give you feedback.
It is an easy accessible read and should clear up most basic questions about the nature of Buddhist practice.
Have you heard KD Lang's version of Hallelujah? She sang it during the Opening Ceremonies for the Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Powerful, moving and gave me goosebumps!
peace
we get flashes of the truth over time. Each time our conviction gets stronger..
But on the other hand thinking that a meditation is 'good' or 'bad' is often just discursive mind chattering..
as others pointed out, this is flawed thinking about what "nirvana/awakening" is. in the nichiren tradition, it is frequently explained as "unshakable happiness," i like this. it says to me that "awakening" is not divorced from reality, it is actually just a shift in your perception of reality. it makes it seem more attainable to me because, who hasn't experienced this before? but to continue that happiness/compassion/wisdom (and all of the things that are necessary/a result for this "unshakable happiness"), well, that is the difficulty. you may get a little glimpse now and then, but to get to the point where you no longer regress, this is still very difficult.
i don't know it is THE path. i just had a "try and see" attitude about it. i have found that it has helped me along my own path and brought happiness and solutions for my otherwise erratic mind. i don't believe it is the path for everyone however. i believe it is the path for myself and for those who are likewise seeking to end their suffering. so many are just completely unaware of this, like the children from the parable of the burning house in the lotus sutra. they were so distracted by the delusions/pleasures of life that they had no idea the house was burning down around them.
i think i understand what you're getting at here. i was raised in relative poverty. relative because, i never starved, but we never had excess either. so being raised like that, and seeing the way that so many of my rich friends were about money, i determined early on that money corrupts. i always said, "i never want to be rich, i just want to have enough." well, the problem with enough is that it's pretty hard to determine and it's turned into "just scraping by" for me. so when something happens like, my car breaks down, it's a very serious difficulty. i sometimes wondered if i adopted my aversion to money just because i knew that it already wasn't in the cards for me. why be sad that i am not one of the fortunate, you know? for a long time i thought, better to be content with my situation.
but that was then, and i have since realized that it was that very notion that has kept me in my situation for so long. it's a very defeatist attitude. i have since let go of my aversion to money and determined that a little hard work never hurt anyone so long as it is a skillful occupation and i do not let it run my life. i think i have finally found this healthy balance with my two jobs and am pretty excited for the future.
what i am finding is that buddhism is not just about avoiding everything in this life that is seen as an attachment. it is the path to the point where you're not forcing yourself anymore. it is very easy to look at the "buddhist life" and the "typical modern day life" side by side and think, "wth? how am i supposed to get there? like THAT'S ever going to happen!" but i think that you would find if you took it step by step and stopped getting distracted by the big final goal that seems so unattainable, that it really is not as impossible as it seems.
now about the different schools, i can't exactly help you there, haha... doing a little research on them all as i speak. i always find learning by experience is the best.
I think I hear much of your confusion, and the fear that you have in making an investment of yourself on any given path. To me, it sounds as though you spent a lot of time bettering yourself in a certain aspect, perhaps in business or religion, and then found that the world you were preparing for was corrupt? This is actually a good thing, and from where you sit now, you are in a great position. How lucky you were not to fall into the trap of corruption! Imagine how unhappy you would have been 15 years from now with the same realization.
Your fear of a new path is perfectly normal. Investing yourself into Buddhism might feel right, but there is the concern that it is only promising a far off reward? As others have said, this is simply not true. The fruits of your dedication are available very quickly.
Also, it isn't an abandoning of your past training, its just a different kind of training. Right now, you are skilled in many aspects, and it sounds as though your heart is trying to find a way to use your skills for the good of humanity and the true good of yourself. Buddhism can very directly help with that, because it gets into the nitty gritty of who you are, what you're seeing, and how you're acting... helping you to align to what you're probably already seeing a lot of!
You don't need to renounce your world, or get rid of all your possessions, or anything of that nature. There is not a need to chop off our knees in order to be closer to the ground. Over time, you will naturally shed things you don't need, through the careful and direct observation of yourself and your environment. Be patient with yourself, and let your view grow, because the fruit that is born of careful study and consistent practice is well worth it.
And again, it manifests here and now, not in some far off land. Enlightenment is not really the goal, rather, its learning how to live well.
With warmth,
Matt
I truly feel for you, friend. Here is my version of The Doubt: "Why can't my secular self just carry on with what it has been doing so far, try hard to make a ton of money, buy all of the happiness in the world, and forget about all of this spiritual nonsense?"
Tried that. Made a little bit of money. Bought a little bit of happiness. It didn't last. Could I have been much better at it? Supposedly. Would that have helped? Doubt it.
My own inferiority complex rears its ugly head every time I hear "successful person" or "market-smartness", thinking "I could be that - and the society would recognize me as such!". But every time I manage to "let go" just a little bit, or get a glimpse of how impermanent things are, the validity of what Buddha taught shines through, drowning out whatever bits of happiness I ever scavenged by being temporarily "successful" in the typical sense of that word. It seems to me that happiness does come from within.
You don't have to venture far down this path to recognize that it's worth following all the way. And even if you do turn away, the time spent learning about your mind in meditation will not be in vain. In the worst case scenario, you'll sleep a little better for some time after you stop practicing
As Buddha said, "Come and see".
False
You learn they all teach the same thing
False
Yourself
False
Do not mistake the monasticism for Buddhism. The Buddha advised that the lay Buddhist should learn and master a skill and not be a burden if possible. As a layperson, one has to earn one's keep unlike monks who are supported by the lay community.
Quote: The Layperson's Code of Discipline
(e) "There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in associating with evil companions, namely: any gambler, any libertine, any drunkard, any swindler, any cheat, any rowdy is his friend and companion.
(f) "There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in being addicted to idleness:
"He does no work, saying:
(i) that it is extremely cold,
(ii) that it is extremely hot,
(iii) that it is too late in the evening,
(iv) that it is too early in the morning,
(v) that he is extremely hungry,
(vi) that he is too full.
"Living in this way, he leaves many duties undone, new wealth he does not get, and wealth he has acquired dwindles away."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html
My advice is to go for the vippasana course and try it out for your self. You don't have to believe anything.
With Metta
I know Buddhism is valid for me because the goal appeals to me, it values the same things that I value and it is something I've found via practice to lead to my long-term welfare and happiness. If you value peace of mind over what the Buddha called the 'eight worldy winds' — namely, gain/loss, praise/blame, fame/disrepute and pleasure/sorrow — then it may be a valid path for you as well.
Excellent response!
He is a very gifted teacher with an amazing talent for explaining difficult concepts. I have been extremely fortunate to hear him speak several times (actually just went to a lecture he gave last Monday!), and received the Chenrezig empowerment from him last year. Glad to hear that you're enjoying his writing!
I am touched by your very involved response. It is really inspiring.
In particular, Pegembera’s post citing Buddha’s teaching came as a surprise. I thought Buddha’s teaching is all about meditation and renounciation; did not know that he paid attention to our conduct on worldly matters too. (I already declared my ignorance so I do not offer any apology this time).
[FONT="]I shall be grateful and be benefited to be told about Buddha’s teachings along these lines. It is reassuring to know that watching my breath is not in lieu of watching my worldly responsibilities[/FONT]
http://vipassana-inquiry.gmxhome.de/_htm/vip.htm
Any guidance?
Thanks
I admit that I didn't read the article in detail, but they seem to have a problem just with this particular organization and teacher. Or am I mistaken? Honestly it's very dense and not laid out well, so without exploring each piece in depth I'm not sure what's going on.
Some gists:
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mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> “No Blind Beliefs” questions why one is not permitted to disagree with some theoretical aspects of Goenca’s teachings.
“Ancient Tradition” questions why Goenca denounces some specifics alternate meditation technique.
“Giving Donations” doubts “pure Vipassana tradition” of teaching it free because a teacher expected something in return
“Surrendering Morality” gives a hint of cult practice.
“Imbalanced Mediators” cites cases of physical injury suffered by meditation practitioners in this school.
“Lay Followers:” suspects ‘No ‘dana’ before completing atleast first 19 day meditation course is only to gather large no of students
[FONT="] I cited only some of the questions raised. Together they make me doubt whether I should try Goenca’s method or look elsewhere[/FONT]
Thanks for clarifying. Most Buddhist traditions use Vipassanā meditation, so you don't need to follow Goenca if you're concerned about his methods. If you are interested you should study it first and see what you think of it, then go from there.
You forgot to attribute the quote to a source. I would be interested in seeing who describes it that way!
Matt