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Ocean of Reasoning

treederwrighttreederwright
edited August 2010 in Philosophy
Has anyone here read and studied Tsong Khapa's Ocean of Reasoning?
If so lets discuss it.

Comments

  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    Its been a long time, but it is a really good text and translation.
    Gives a clear window into some of Tsongkhapa's unique viewpoints and interpretations.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    I have a hard time reading it. I get confused with Reverse Reductios. ??? and why some of the refutations are made according to these kind of terms. Can you help?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    I have a hard time reading it. I get confused with Reverse Reductios. ??? and why some of the refutations are made according to these kind of terms. Can you help?

    I dont know if I can help that much to be honest. Maybe post the verses or ideas that you are struggling with and we can discuss them.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    Have you studied this text?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    Have you studied this text?

    Yes.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    what are some of the benefits of studing it? Are they found through other methods?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    what are some of the benefits of studing it? Are they found through other methods?
    Well, with the study of any madhyamaka text or commentary you are going to be working with the two accumulations, merit and wisdom.
    You can develop merit and wisdom through learning, contemplation, and meditation. They are also the key developmental aspects of ngondro practice.
    Its definitely good to study madhyamaka though.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    i want to learn how it relates to my life so understanding the commentary seems like a start toward a healthy view. I just don't know if im grasping it properly. What process do you suggest for learning commentaries . Is there a way to absorb the information better than just a thourough read? Or do i just need to grit my teeth and try and make it through it. I did this with Mipham's commentary on Madhyamakavatara and it was very fatiguing. This seems more intense so im asking for help for a change.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    i want to learn how it relates to my life so understanding the commentary seems like a start toward a healthy view. I just don't know if im grasping it properly. What process do you suggest for learning commentaries . Is there a way to absorb the information better than just a thourough read? Or do i just need to grit my teeth and try and make it through it. I did this with Mipham's commentary on Madhyamakavatara and it was very fatiguing. This seems more intense so im asking for help for a change.
    The best advice I can give is to seek out a teacher.
    I always understand things a lot better when receive them from my teacher(s).
    Also, it makes sense to grasp the meaning thoroughly by studying shorter, more straight-forward texts.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    I would also recommend practicing ngondro, Majushri, or the guru yoga's of Tsongkhapa or Sakya Pandita.
    By working with these kinds of wisdom practices you can build a strong foundation for understanding difficult texts like this.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    I do the Words of my perfect teacher ngondro preliminaries and the guide to that . But i don't have the empowerment for Ngondro. I dont have a guru and there aren't many around my area , So im limited . I don't know where to find a teacher that i can trust. But will you explain the above texts and practices and how i can start?

    Im also listening to Sogyal Rinpoche's oral teachings Treasury of Dharma. He says they are pith about Dzogchen. Im hoping this instruction will sufice but im sure its probably not enough.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    I do the Words of my perfect teacher ngondro preliminaries and the guide to that . But i don't have the empowerment for Ngondro. I dont have a guru and there aren't many around my area , So im limited . I don't know where to find a teacher that i can trust. But will you explain the above texts and practices and how i can start?

    Im also listening to Sogyal Rinpoche's oral teachings Treasury of Dharma. He says they are pith about Dzogchen. Im hoping this instruction will sufice but im sure its probably not enough.

    Here is a link to a copy of the Tsongkhapa guru yoga practice.
    http://shop.fpmt.org/Lama-Tsong-Khapa-Guru-Yoga-CD_p_473.html

    I personally have completed two retreats of this practice and am very fond of it. I dont identify as a Gelugpa but this practice is extraordinary and this is a very good translation of it.
    Tsongkhapa is considered to be an emanation of Manjushri and you dont need an empowerment to do this practice.
    Its a great place to start.
    Guru yoga is key in the development of wisdom.
    I would recommend that you do this practice until you find a teacher who can give you the transmission for the complete Longchen Nyingtig ngondro or some other ngondro.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    The previous link I gave was for the cd.
    Here is the text:
    http://shop.fpmt.org/Lama-Tsong-Khapa-Guru-Yoga_p_77.html
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    is this like ngondro? or can you briefly explain ngondro and if sogyal rinpoche's treasury of dharma is helpful for it?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    is this like ngondro? or can you briefly explain ngondro and if sogyal rinpoche's treasury of dharma is helpful for it?
    I'm not familiar with Sogyal Rinpoche's Treasury of Dharma.
    The Tsongkhapa guru yoga is similar to ngondro, but it primarily focuses on the guru yoga aspect, whereas a full ngondro is longer and includes Vajrasattva and in the case of the Longchen Nyingthig it also has the kusali tsog, which is an abbreviated chod practice.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    i got a book of tsongkhapa's guru yoga. But its pretty concise. Is there an explanation avail to expound the text and practice?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    i got a book of tsongkhapa's guru yoga. But its pretty concise. Is there an explanation avail to expound the text and practice?

    There is a great commentary available through Gelek Rimpoche's sangha, Jewel Heart.
    jewelheart.org
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    the link was not valid, but i found a commentary by zopa rinpoche. What do you think about this. Also i have His Holiness Dalai Lama's ; lama choepa. Can you guide me what else i need. I also have said the Migtsema like 200 times. I love the help you gave me , I got to practice ton lin at a 12 step meeting. That was helpful. I also when reflecting on love was able to have peace of mind knowing i have a human birth and that im utilizing it properly by practicing dharma. Im listining to a teaching by Thupten Rinpoche that was online at Lamrim.com; Also i listened on a geroke commentary on youtube that was long and the person saying it talked really fast with a tibetan accent. But this helped as well. Now i don't read any Tsongkhapa without saying the Migtsema and doing at least one visualization. Im learning so many things and its becoming great with stability because of the visualizations. There i was open and honest. Do you have any suggestions?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    the link was not valid, but i found a commentary by zopa rinpoche. What do you think about this. Also i have His Holiness Dalai Lama's ; lama choepa. Can you guide me what else i need. I also have said the Migtsema like 200 times. I love the help you gave me , I got to practice ton lin at a 12 step meeting. That was helpful. I also when reflecting on love was able to have peace of mind knowing i have a human birth and that im utilizing it properly by practicing dharma. Im listining to a teaching by Thupten Rinpoche that was online at Lamrim.com; Also i listened on a geroke commentary on youtube that was long and the person saying it talked really fast with a tibetan accent. But this helped as well. Now i don't read any Tsongkhapa without saying the Migtsema and doing at least one visualization. Im learning so many things and its becoming great with stability because of the visualizations. There i was open and honest. Do you have any suggestions?

    Sounds good.
    My only suggestion would be to keep it up.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    thanks. I really like the guru yoga its a great practice. thank you again.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    So i was reading some of my literature on Mantra, Can you tell me what kind of mantra migtseyma is. This will help with my understanding of this mantra. I have several guides from third turning teachings. I just need to know where to start on this one. It gives lots of help.
  • TsongkhapafanTsongkhapafan
    edited August 2010
    There are four kinds of mantras from the point of view of their nature - mantras that are mind, mantras that are wind, mantras that are sound and mantras that are letters (form). The migtsema mantras is all of these :)

    If you really want to understand 'Ocean of Reasoning', it's very important to get Guru Tsongkhapa's blessings so doing the Guru Yoga of Je Tsongkhapa is vitally important.

    If you want to know more about mantras, I would recommend reading 'Tantric Grounds and Paths' by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso where he gives an excellent explanation of mantra and the benefits of recitation.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    Tsongkhapafan wrote: »
    I would recommend reading 'Tantric Grounds and Paths' by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso where he gives an excellent explanation of mantra and the benefits of recitation.
    Not a good recommendation. the content of that book is completely inappropriate for someone who has not received a Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Well done for editing your post Shenpen :)
    Youve presented your self more dipolmatically.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    caz namyaw wrote: »
    Well done for editing your post Shenpen :)
    Youve presented your self more dipolmatically.
    I try.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited August 2010
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    I try.

    Thats for more productive for peoples harmony and Benifit well done. :)
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited August 2010
    I concure that the Guru Yoga of Tsongkhapa is a very important thing to do if one wishes to gain a better understanding of his works, Such a close connection with him is very benifical. :)
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    I have that book so i will look at it on mantras. Also what is the danger of practicing without an empowerment? I don't mean to be rude to authentic lineage holders. But i read some tantric commentaries and it seems that the information is very helpful and actually deepens the words and practices . So it seems counter productive to not offer more empowerments when it comes to bodhichitta. Just a thought.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    I have that book so i will look at it on mantras. Also what is the danger of practicing without an empowerment? I don't mean to be rude to authentic lineage holders. But i read some tantric commentaries and it seems that the information is very helpful and actually deepens the words and practices . So it seems counter productive to not offer more empowerments when it comes to bodhichitta. Just a thought.
    Empowerments arent hard to come by, but, one of the 14 main tantric vows is not to share information about tantric practice with people who have not been empowered. It can create problems for the teacher and the student.
    Its best to wait until have received a major empowerment before reading tantric commentaries.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    I have that book so i will look at it on mantras. Also what is the danger of practicing without an empowerment? I don't mean to be rude to authentic lineage holders. But i read some tantric commentaries and it seems that the information is very helpful and actually deepens the words and practices . So it seems counter productive to not offer more empowerments when it comes to bodhichitta. Just a thought.

    It depends how one reads such material with what mind they do it with. :)
    If you do it with a positive mind of faith and a wish to increase ones wisdom and other positive attributes you will create the causes to accomplish this.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    I really think some of the literature is helpful. But i respect tradition. Highest Yoga Tantra Empowerments aren't readily avail in Sacramento CA. USA. I have a hard time even finding a teacher to read Lamrim with. But i have unceasing dedication and will study to the day of my death. This i have done for years so im happy with guru yoga of Tsongkhapa's and the results from this practice.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    I really think some of the literature is helpful. But i respect tradition. Highest Yoga Tantra Empowerments aren't readily avail in Sacramento CA. USA. I have a hard time even finding a teacher to read Lamrim with. But i have unceasing dedication and will study to the day of my death. This i have done for years so im happy with guru yoga of Tsongkhapa's and the results from this practice.

    You are in Sacramento and cant find a teacher!
    The entire state of California is absolutely crawling with authentic and respected Tibetan Buddhist teachers.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    also, you dont necessarily have to live close to your teacher for the relationship to be strong and beneficial.
    I havent seen my root guru in over a year.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    Can you reccomend a teacher in Sacramento?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    If I were you I would start planning a trip here for an event.

    http://www.gomdeusa.org/
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    or here
    http://www.atiling.org/index.html
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    or here:

    http://www.ewamchoden.org/
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    those events are expensive. I don't have that much money. One time i asked to go to a teaching of a local lama here in Sacramento and they refused me because of money. I don't like that idea. But i do believe that buddhists should be paid just like any other person providing services. but they are expensive sometimes.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    why are the empowerments so expensive to receive?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    why are the empowerments so expensive to receive?

    I dont think they are at all.
    I have never paid once felt like I was over paying for an empowerment or teaching.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    I stopped doing tsongkhapa guru yoga. Im reading Dogen now, but i really like the grounding that i got by reading the lamrim chenmo, it really has put the zen path in new perspective. I still identify as a Tibetan Buddhist but i like to read Soto Zen books too. I really get deep emotional help from zen, i get lots of structural help from tibet.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    treederwright wrote: »
    I stopped doing tsongkhapa guru yoga. Im reading Dogen now, but i really like the grounding that i got by reading the lamrim chenmo, it really has put the zen path in new perspective. I still identify as a Tibetan Buddhist but i like to read Soto Zen books too. I really get deep emotional help from zen, i get lots of structural help from tibet.
    If you are into Dogen you should check out Realizing Genjokoan by Shohaku Okumura.
    its a really good book.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    I love Dogen. The subtlety is great after learning Geshe Tashi Tserings Foundations the Lamrim and Nagarjuna's main points. I have recently read Maitreyas Ornament of clear realization. Several Tibetan commentaries and Words of My Perfect Teacher. Kalachakra Tantra Guyagharba Tantra commentaries. After all this Dogen is very subtle and awesome. I feel i have at least the foundation to understand most teachings. I really started out on Tibetan Book of the Dead as my first Tibetan Book. I was so floored by the terminology. I knew instinctively that all was true. But i couldn't understand anything, LOL. So now when i read that book it is great i understand a lot and at least have a foundation to keep learning things from accurately. You guys on this forum are awesome and i'll check out that book.
    TY
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    Back to the OP i have only learned about Guru Yoga in relation to this text. I think that any help avail has been given.

    I guess we can close this one.
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