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Are You There God? It's Me, Mugzy
mugzy
Veteran
Forgive the punny title. I haven't slept for days so I'm getting a little weird :wtf:
I was trying to think of a way to explain this, since it's been on my mind for a while. I'm not an atheist, as I definitely believe there are many things we don't understand, things that are beyond our current limited views. I believe in God, but not in any kind of traditional way. When I say that I'm praying to God, I don't think of a concept that can be put into words. God is within me, and I am within God. For a while I would pray to the Great Mystery, the Great Unknown, Creator of All Things. I certainly don't think of God as being separate from myself.
When Buddha was asked about God, or how the world began, he refused to answer. I think this was very wise. I don't think God or any kind of supreme source can be easily explained in a way that makes sense to everybody. To me, it's much like the concept of nirvana, which is really beyond concepts and non-concepts, between reality and non-reality. It really can't be put into words. It must be experienced for yourself.
I don't know where I'm going with this, I just wanted to share my thoughts as best I could. Maybe other people have a similar feeling.
I should add that don't describe myself as Buddhist, or anything else for that matter. I think of it as being a spiritual seeker, for lack of a better term. For the last few years I've become deeply involved in Buddhist studies and practices. If anything it has only deepened my connection to the Holy Spirit, the sacred, the Light within all beings.
I was trying to think of a way to explain this, since it's been on my mind for a while. I'm not an atheist, as I definitely believe there are many things we don't understand, things that are beyond our current limited views. I believe in God, but not in any kind of traditional way. When I say that I'm praying to God, I don't think of a concept that can be put into words. God is within me, and I am within God. For a while I would pray to the Great Mystery, the Great Unknown, Creator of All Things. I certainly don't think of God as being separate from myself.
When Buddha was asked about God, or how the world began, he refused to answer. I think this was very wise. I don't think God or any kind of supreme source can be easily explained in a way that makes sense to everybody. To me, it's much like the concept of nirvana, which is really beyond concepts and non-concepts, between reality and non-reality. It really can't be put into words. It must be experienced for yourself.
I don't know where I'm going with this, I just wanted to share my thoughts as best I could. Maybe other people have a similar feeling.
I should add that don't describe myself as Buddhist, or anything else for that matter. I think of it as being a spiritual seeker, for lack of a better term. For the last few years I've become deeply involved in Buddhist studies and practices. If anything it has only deepened my connection to the Holy Spirit, the sacred, the Light within all beings.
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Comments
Many people go to god with a wish list and then get upset when it isnt fulfiled, Because they made a few assumptions.
A: This God as described in the traditional sense actually exists.
B: It is self aware.
C: He actually cares.
Personally for my self I dont beleive in a creator god, The concept is illogical for me, However i do beleive there are higher beings ones that like to be called gods and so forth that posess such form because of their karma, In the Sutra's Buddha was requested by the God Indra to turn the wheel of Dharma for sentient beings, Many people had though of Indra as a supreme god a aspect of the creator but however Buddha is known of have said on the matter that these higher beings are not worthy objects of refuge because they are still Trapped within Samsara.
While what you say mugzy is interesting and a common concept amongst the new agers there is a similar method in Tantra, The word God is a bit rough and undefined to use for the method of self realization, But it is a very profound concept of bringing out the God-within to turn a phrase...More appropriatly put would be to bring out the Buddha within.
Interesting words.
for a period of 3 years of my life i was in an extreme depression due to something i hated about myself and was helpless to change. i prayed fervently to god to change me and to give me the strength to stay alive. but for years, he too, was silent. the self hatred i exuded during this time knew no bounds. from self mutilation to anorexia, i punished myself in the way i thought i should due to my "cancer", as i thought of it.
one night an idea entered my mind that perhaps i was being ridiculous and perhaps i am exactly as i am meant to be. there's no point in asking to be changed when there's nothing wrong with me in the first place. for the first time in years i felt warm and safe and... loved. the idea was so new and so powerful that i actually began to laugh at myself and how silly i had been. it was an odd experience and it is still very difficult for me to say, even now, whether i think the idea came from myself or from an external source. but it can be said that after this experience, i never questioned myself again.
over time, i have let go of the idea of god as i used to believe in it. ever since i was young, i would think of god as a big father in the sky. my god was never mean or rash, but always full of love. i no longer attribute human emotions onto god, i think he is bigger than this.
i think if i had to try to make sense of my experience, i would say that i doubt it was an external creator influencing my thoughts. i feel as though it is more likely that perhaps i was so depleted that i somehow became more in tap with something within me, maybe the god within me. for once, emotional pain had killed my internal monologue. i remember the preceding feelings as that of emptiness, a calm. for something to suddenly push you from tears to laughter, it seems odd to me to think that it could be only me... but even odder to think that it was a direct touch from god. there's so many people in this world struggling, you know? they don't experience this. i refuse to believe that i am somehow more important than they are, more worthy. what does make sense to me is that god exists within us all, if only we can figure out a way to reach him. my fundamental thoughts were flawed and i now realize that. at the time though, it was all i had been told and so, i thought it to be true. perhaps deep down somewhere, i knew the truth all along... hard to say.
it doesn't matter to me what others think about the validity of my story. it is as i remember it and it was a very important day for me. what is funny though, is that i am almost positive that if i told this story to most christians they would tell me it was actually the devil trying to confuse me, due to the nature of my "problem". haha. but this is why i believe that god is a very personal thing. this is something i learned through my own experience, and it matters not what others say.
but in the day to day, i don't think about god. i don't pray to god. i don't fear god. i work on meditating and becoming more compassionate. if there is a god, i'm pretty sure this is what he would want me to do... not constantly ask for his help, heh. i think this is why the buddha refused to answer. we need to be responsible for ourselves and our problems instead of just pushing them off on an eternal daddy figure.
:bigclap:
In my mind, we are already one with God.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I agree that the concept (or non-concept) of God is a very personal matter. For me, the word "God" really doesn't do my experience justice. It's just a word, and even beyond that word and the absence of language there's a force or presence that I feel connected to, regardless of what others think. It's more than any words can describe.
Through Buddhist instruction and practice these conceptual constructs were seen, not as "right" or "wrong", but as conceptual constructs that arise and pass along with the rest of the thought stream.
In Buddhism I was taught that all such concepts are skillful means and not metaphysical claims, and it was as skillful means that they were to be measured. The measure in Buddhism is the ending of Suffering. By this measure , for me, these concepts did not lead to the ending of suffering. The Four Noble truths did.
Yes, and in the mind of Bill Hicks and probably alot of other people.
Why would my Mormon friends say this then? Strange.
I'm not sure, but I think the difference in their view is that "God" is an external being, a separate entity from ourselves. To them, we are "less" or "below" God, and by doing certain things you can align merge with this force. They want you to "be one with God" by joining their church and aligning yourself with what they perceive as God. This is different from my personal view, in that we are all already One, no matter who we are or what our beliefs may be.
Why do people need God? Why do people pray to God? Does he/she console you in return? Or is the prayer a consolation in itself?
If you are short of money, can you pray for money? How about a better tempered wife?(the last one did not work by the way:).
Whats the God thing about? Is it asking for things we need like a child of his parent? Or just feeling that we are not alone in this world? That no matter what there is a being who will embrace you?
What does God ask in return for that which He/She provides?
Any thoughts?
/Victor
I don't ascribe to these views so I am unable to answer any of them. I thought I made that clear when I wrote "I believe in God, but not in any kind of traditional way." So I'm not sure where you got the impression that I relate to "God" in this way.
It's hard to explain. When I pray, I'm praying to a force I don't know how to describe, a force that is within everything and everyone, the entire universe and the lack thereof. I don't think of a "being" with anthropomorphic qualities. It is beyond concepts and non-concepts, so any way I try to explain it will fall short, so I have to rely on words that undoubtedly don't do justice to the idea I'm trying to convey.
As my post stated, I don't feel God is a separate entity from myself, so when I say things like "Great Mystery" or "supreme source" (as in the title of The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde) it is ultimately just a term I use to try and express my feelings. I don't mean I'm sending an SOS out into space for God to receive at his office in heaven, or wherever, asking for more money, better wife, etc. I'm still not clear on what about my original post gave you these ideas, or if they weren't specifically directed towards me, but I'm a little confused.
I pray because it feels right. I say God because it feels right, and it's the best word I have.
I was not trying to impose any views on you. Sorry if it seemed that way. The thread is pretty diffuse (for me) so I was just trying to get a hold of some corner...
Like you I feel that God is within me and I am within God.
Mind if I ask what you pray for? I guess that is pretty personal so I will not be too disapointed if you refuse.
I do pray myself sometimes when I feel weak. I pray for strength to get through somethings. But I avoid praying becasue I feel obligated to do something in return for what I pray. I feel there must be a balance between what I ask and what I give. Do you also have this feeling?
But I never involve my belief in God in my cultivation.
/Victor
Okay sorry! Yes I was confused, thanks for clarifying.
:thumbsup:
Mostly I pray with gratitude. I pray with thanks for all my blessings and that I can use them to follow a righteous path. If I'm praying for something I try to make my prayer as meaningful and far-reaching as I can; it's usually for all beings to be free from suffering and reach enlightenment, especially my loved ones and enemies. Sometimes I do pray for the strength to overcome obstacles, and even though situations may be difficult I try to be grateful for the opportunity to practice.
Sometimes I pray for others, if they are sick or suffering, and by doing so I send my positive energy and take in their pain; sort of a tonglen-style healing prayer.
I've never thought of pray in this way. I never felt it was that clear-cut in terms of "I pray for this, so I'll give you that." The energy transmitted is in the prayer, and the return is in the prayer. I don't know how to explain it. What do you feel you would be obligated to give?
Mostly I pray with gratitude. I pray with thanks for all my blessings and that I can use them to follow a righteous path. If I'm praying for something I try to make my prayer as meaningful and far-reaching as I can; it's usually for all beings to be free from suffering and reach enlightenment, especially my loved ones and enemies. Sometimes I do pray for the strength to overcome obstacles, and even though situations may be difficult I try to be grateful for the opportunity to practice.
Sometimes I pray for others, if they are sick or suffering, and by doing so I send my positive energy and take in their pain; sort of a tonglen-style healing prayer.
What you are doing here Mugzy is metta meditation, which is like a prayer. Buddhas also pray for other's sickness, etc.
How wonderful. It reminds me of Metta Meditation and of how in Buddhism you do pray for other's sickness, etc.
Your views were much like my own, and so I found that the New Jonang teachings of Tibetan Buddhism suited me more than all others because they teach Pure Self.
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#cite_ref-43
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha068.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=BADEnh5f4jkC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=%22Bh%C5%ABridatta+Jataka%22&source=web&ots=-0KMXfCd6o&sig=JY5_oGXrabzqmuvXwW0VKpvRlvs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false
And of course, Hume:
"[Gods] power we allow [is] infinite: Whatever he wills is executed: But neither man nor any other animal are happy: Therefore he does not will their happiness. His wisdom is infinite: He is never mistaken in choosing the means to any end: But the course of nature tends not to human or animal felicity: Therefore it is not established for that purpose. Through the whole compass of human knowledge, there are no inferences more certain and infallible than these. In what respect, then, do his benevolence and mercy resemble the benevolence and mercy of men?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#cite_ref-44
In my opinion, these are the ultimate refutation for theology. (At least in the traditional way).
This is a very good article about the topic:
Buddhism and the God-idea
by
Nyanaponika Thera
© 2004. BuddhaNet edition © 1996.–2010
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/godidea.html