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Ramadan
Simonthepilgrim
Veteran
Ramadan starts this week when our Muslim brothers and sisters observe a dawn-to-dusk fast and are required to increase their actions of generosity.
Western Christianity has almost completely given up the ancient practice of fasting and it has never been part of Jewish thought. In the East, Jain, Hindu and other faith families have maintained the tradition - in some cases as far as fasting to death (Jainism).
Whilst the Buddha and Buddhist tradition has tended away from fasting, there are local practices as, for example, in Tibet.
Coming as son many of us do from a tradition of three or four meals a day, do you not think that we would do well to return to a regular period of self-denial, particularly if linked - as in Ramadan - with increased generosity?
Western Christianity has almost completely given up the ancient practice of fasting and it has never been part of Jewish thought. In the East, Jain, Hindu and other faith families have maintained the tradition - in some cases as far as fasting to death (Jainism).
Whilst the Buddha and Buddhist tradition has tended away from fasting, there are local practices as, for example, in Tibet.
Coming as son many of us do from a tradition of three or four meals a day, do you not think that we would do well to return to a regular period of self-denial, particularly if linked - as in Ramadan - with increased generosity?
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Comments
I don't give a rat's meow what the religious fascists do to deny themselves. If they think it's Allah's will to make a hell on earth, denying themselves a few creature comforts really doesn't impress upon me any idea of their personal holiness.
Indeed, denying themselves may make it easier to deny others their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
I've changed my mind about Islam in the last couple of years. I believe that the Lord Buddha and the Lord Jesus taught a better way than the politics of holiness. Theirs was a gospel of service to others and of compassion; not a rigid trap of rule-following servitude to some all-seeing, imperious power.
Islam is the enemy of people's self-determination and any real justice on this earth. They say "peace, peace," but they only mean it on their own terms.
Islam is not a culture that would ever foment goodwill among all nations, but is one that insists on its own way, leaving justice and charity lying in the dust if they would stand in the way of submission to what the rulers want.
WHAT A RACKET!
Funny thing is that historically the same criticisms can be leveled at Christianity.
Historically this is true with Christianity after Jesus, But what can be said of the actual teachings themselves ? There is a huge gap between Jesus and mohammed, I dont think Jesus ever personally spread his message by the sword.
Thanks for your comments. I am sad to see that you have been conned into Islamophobic attitudes. May I suggest that, knowing you to be a person who will take time to challenge your own prejudices, you look at the Sufi poets and the writings of the many Islamic scholars who maintain that Islam is being perverted in much the same way as Christ's message at the time of the Crusades or the slaughters of conquered peoples by Spanish, British and American imperialists in the name of conversion.
Read Rumi and Omar Khayyam, my friend, and make the essential difference between culture and faith. We both agree, I think, that the bloody history of Christendom should not deny us the blessings of the fundamental message.
I repeat that Ramadan is a time when the mind and daily lives of believers should be turned towards compassion and generosity. Self-denial in a world where the rich get richer and ignore the poor, where the powerful rape the resources that could better the lives of others, where those who have steal from those who have not is a yearly reminder.
There's all kinds of "slaughter those who do not worship your God" bits in the Bible. They may not be spoken by Jesus personally, but they're there, and depending on your interpretation may be endorsed by Jesus ("I come not to bring peace but a sword", and so on).
However, fasting the whole day through and then indulging in whatever you like after the sun goes down doesn't seem like a true fast to me. It's more like a purge, letting yourself get all dehydrated and whatever during the day.
There's no rendering of the heart at night when they turn to feasting.
My prayer is that these god-lusting Muslims will at least take the month off from their murders of innocent people.
Those that indulge in the old ways of the politics of personal holiness (such as the Muslims) are not disposed to make this a better world. The politics of compassion and identification with all beings is the only way forward.
Of course, nearly everyone is familiar with the poetry of Rumi and Kabir! But these are Mystics! I am not saying that Islam has no Mystical tradition. What I am saying is that Islam tends to devalue all that is truly human.
Takeahnase, it's true that Christian peoples and Christian nations have also been totalitarian in the past. However, that is in the past and is not the wave of the future. As far as Islam goes, though, the future of its adherents (and victims) seems headed towards totalitarianism.
I am no Islamophobe. I just value human freedom and consistency in thought and action. The Islamic world offers nothing but ready-made formulas to adopt as part and parcel of your daily life.
And Jesus did bring a sword upon the old establishment did he not ? And he was crucified for it. The Important difference being between one speaking of such and one doing as such, For example while no historical evidence supports Jesus (himself) engaging in bloody conflict with those he disagreed with, Ordering their deaths for mocking him ect... The same cannot be said of the Islamic Prophet Muhammed all the historical recording of such events always persist years after their actual existance but what is important is that it is devotely believed by their followers to the extent in the muslim case that those doing their best to emulate the recorded actions of the prophet such as spreading the message of Islam will certainly be performing very negative actions. It is sad to think that Islamist organisations get their every justification from the recorded behaviour of their prophet. On the other note however to account for the Mystical traditions in Islam and some of the wonderful works of Rumi remember the many cultures that absorb religion, and also remember the many other aspects of differing beleifs trying to survive amidst Islamist occupation, Where Did all the Buddhists in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan dissapear to ? You dont need to think to hard.
I know this is off-topic, but I LOVE RUMI!
:ot:
In my experience Muslims, on the whole, have been far more tolerant, accepting and peaceful than Christians I've known. I love how whenever someone condemns Islam for violence and Christianity's violence is pointed out there's always some excuse as to why that doesn't count. Trust me, there are still Christians out there who would strip you of your rights, or even execute you, for not following their beliefs if they could get by with doing so.
Thank you, Takeahnase. Perhaps it might be as well to adapt the NRA slogan to fit the religions.
Nirvy, you say: Why "such as the Muslims"? Should you not include Buddhists and Christians too? If Buddhism is a genuine force for a better world through "compassion and identification with all beings" why are not those areas of the world with many Buddhists more peaceful and prosperous?
You are, dear friend, confusing religion and culture/nationalism. I cannot judge what is in another's heart when they invoke Allah the Compassionate but I can and do witness the strength and compassion of our local Muslim communities as they support each other and engage in local politics. We may be at war with two areas where Islam is the predominant religion, we must bear in mind that we are at peace with many others - or do you think that Islam should be deemed a hate crime? Would you "make a window into men's souls"? You know where that ends up (vide thread on 1984).
I haven't yet met one Muslim where I live, here, who practises Ramadan earnestly, or who practises generosity.
If they do, it is within their own community.
We live in a part of town where there is a large community of Muslims.
I see children out in the street - of all ages - drinking coke and eating crisps during the day. I see the town's taxi drivers (not one single indigenous, British white taxi driver among them, and the rank is often 20 - 30 cars long and two wide...believe me, I've looked....) and I see them sitting in the front seats of their cabs, eating dried Indian snacks... and drinking.
Not alcohol, I admit.
But it's because they value their licenses, not because they don't drink.
Sad, isn't it, that Muslims, young and older, appear to be transforming themselves into the Brits they see around them.
Tell me, Fede, why do you look to establish the supposed ethnicity of taxi drivers? Their gender I can understand, if you want a female driver but why their race or religion (which is much harder to see and a conclusion to jump to)? And should they break the rules of their own faith, is it any business of ours?
I would have thought that you, of all people, would maintain that a person's religion is their own affair so long as it does not impose on others. Let them eat snacks. Let Christians break their Lenten fast or their marriage vows. It is none of our business.
A question: what are we to call ourselves if we judge another person by their (presumed and prejudged) ethnicity?
Both are as bad as each other most of the time. :sadc:
Of course when it comes down to it are peoples actions justified by their following in example of the founder ?
I wouldn't care if they were all Jamaican Rastafarians. I'm just saying that the population of Muslims is so high around here, that of all the registered cab drivers in the town, not one of them is British-born or white.
No, but you brought Ramadan up, I didn't. And you said -
I do not find any Muslims here representative that image.
It is when supermarkets flaunt such festivals and advertise their occasion.
It's a cultural thing.But it is imposed on us.
Predominantly, The United Kingdom has been for as long as sanyone can remember, a Christian nation.
We can happily coexist as a multinational nation, but trying to make it multi-cultural is impossible.
How many Muslims nations do you see making a big thing with their European inhabitants, of Christmas and Easter?
Human.
We are all biased to one degree or another, in one way or another.
Whether that should shame us and make us change our way of thinking is for us to deal with on a personal basis.
I have several very good friends who are Muslim, a family of very good Hindu neighbours, who are all lovely, and I work with Sikhs.
Individually, they are all extremely wonderful people.
But I personally wouldn't marry one.
I can't conform to a set of ideas I disagree with.
And if I disagree with aspects of their culture, why does that make me racist and judgemental?
I'm Buddhist and I observe the fast of Ramadhan out of respect for my wife's family and because I believe it is a practice which has aided me immensely. Anyway, I'm always shocked and amazed at the license people in various Buddhist fora take when speaking about Islam. If people are truly worried about the scourge of Islam the appropriate response surely doesn't seem to me to be one that ups the ante with hateful rhetoric (unless of course we're advocating the extermination of all Muslims). If metta and karuna are to be our guides in social interactions with everyone how does such speech aid us in our practice, how does it reduce suffering for ourselves and others.
Anyway, I just wanted to inject a dissenting voice to accompany Simon and I'll just sit back and take the roasting that I'm sure is awaiting me. Metta.
I must have misunderstood you when you said: Accepting what you say, "that the population of Muslims is so high around here, that of all the registered cab drivers in the town, not one of them is British-born or white", I have some questions:
* Are there registered and licensed taxi-drivers who are "British-born and white" who want places on the rank but are unable to get them?
* Why do you imagine that non-whites are not British-born?
* Do the drivers do a bad or a good job?
You say that you have not met Muslims who observe Ramadan, whereas I have and do. Can you accept that your impression may be partial?
Not content with judging people you don't know, you go on: Perhaps you would like to spend a Sabbath in Stamford Hill. Would you object to observant Jews closing their shops and offices? Do you object to schools celebrating Divali where there is a good number of Hindus? Which bit of our 'Christian' heritage do you want to preserve? I am old enough to remember the stricture of the Sunday Trading laws - do you want them back? Or should we banish Catholics and re-enact the anti-Catholic laws? The truth is that, whatever our past, we are many miles away from being "a Christian nation", whatever that actually means.
We have been accommodating varieties of culture for centuries. We have also had spasms of objecting: to Catholics, to Protestants, to Jews, to Hindus and, most recently, to Muslims. In the end, we have managed to come to ways of living together where each can celebrate their own culture. We even put up with Saint Patrick's Day or Hallowe'en. That shops have worked out that there are profits to be made by catering to their majority demographic is just what we must expect in a free market economy. Do you want to tell them what they should sell or promote? How would you enforce it?
How many wrongs make a right?
Personally, I have found that bias and prejudice dissolve bit by bit as I challenge them.
Some of my training is thanks to my contacts with the black consciousness, radical feminist and gay rights movements of the '60s and '70s and I came to understand that dismantling prejudice goes beyond the personal. It is integral to my walking the Noble Eightfold Path.
Why are your remarks racist? Because you use the language of racism. Mark me well, my darling friend, I am not saying that you are a racist, I say that language such as "some of my best friends are black/Jewish/Muslim/men" is discriminatory. I suggest that you may want to examine your aversions. This is not meant as criticism but as feedback from a friend: there is no shame in finding our prejudices, I have had to deal with plenty of my own and still work on them. It is only a problem if we deny they hinder us and cut us off from our neighbour.
Merchants commercializing a religious holiday? Why this is a thing unheard of.
I hear this kind of thing so often from Brits, other Europeans, and even (especially) fellow Americans. I find it quite ironic considering that for centuries we've all been imposing our cultures on others (sometimes forcefully).
Does it matter? Many Muslim nations are theocracies. Should we stoop back to that level?
Simon, Pilgrim, I am alluding to the "new esthetic" that Christ represented in his objections to the formalism in the old Judaic code that rigidly governed people's morals and the ways in which they made personal choices about which way to react to others. Christ's way was the "Politics of Compassion," which was antithetical to the "Politics of personal Holiness" wherein many others were simply untouchable and beneath consideration.
All I'm saying is that Islam is a continuation of that ancient religion based on the "politics of holiness." In Muhammed's time the religious setting was a very informal Judaism based on what St. Paul called the "Law." From that climate sprang what is essentially a regimental code of living which is not at all a good fit for today's liberated and complex world. Be that as it may, the dualism of which we human beings are far too susceptible, keeps Islam alive —despite all the contradictions its adherents must live with.
Though true that, historically, the church has been guilty of a totalitarianism which ran roughshod over the rights of others, it was nevertheless not following the teachings of the Lord Jesus at those times. Indeed, one could argue that it is only in our own time that the true mission of Jesus can be maintained by the church. However, the scriptures are clear, compassionate, and not exacting of too high a price, either. The same cannot be fairly said about Islam. I repeat what I said in an earlier post (#2 above):
What I object to most about Islam is the regimentation and the tiresomeness of it all. Unlike Christianity, modern Judaism, and Buddhism, it has no real respect for people's experience —either personal or religious. Even the Sufis and other Muslims in the mystical tradition are suspect to most Muslims, I believe.
Experience counts for a lot in life.
Experience: I say, any religion that would teach its adherents not to dip their toe into the river of life is not only ghastly but obsolete.
I understand where you are coming from, whilst still thinking that your view is partial in that you base it on a few theocratic dictatorships such as Iran or the Taliban ambition for Afghanistan. This is not the whole of the Umma, any more than GWB's objective of a Christian Republic in the USA is the whole of Christianity. From the outside, contemporary evangelical Christianity, such as that which our brother Palzang encountered in Mongolia, aggressively trying to 'convert', or the abusive charismatics looks like the whole of the "ecclesia" but you and I both know that this is not the whole picture. As you say, modern Christian thinking contains a far more inclusive and compassionate strand. Just as Buddhism, under the influence of giants such as HHDL and Thich Nhat Hanh has moved from a focus on purely personal liberation to an understanding of our interconnectedness, our 'interbeing', so Christianity today, in its best manifestations, returns to the basic teachings of Jesus to love one another, to feed the hungry, to comfort the afflicted and to free the prisoner.
Within the Umma, there are many voices and writers, who are speaking more and more loudly for an understanding of the Qur'an based on the compassion of Allah the Compassionate.
Of course, there remain those who cling to old, abusive ways, just as there are within all the faith families. It is terrible for us all when they seize power.
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
Well said.
Furthermore, EVERYBODY should be discouraged from writing or speaking about the things close to their hearts.
Your argument that one should not discuss themes on this board seems absurd to me. Anyone familiar with this board knows that we tend to be off-topicers.
TT, I am not referring to the multiple characteristics of Islam's adherents. I am just trying to address what I believe is a dualistic, anachronistic religious mentality that all but the mystics in Islam fall victim to.
Just read elsewhere if it makes you roll your eyes.
but going off topic from -
to -
is definitely straying far off-topic.
Too far.
And this too is off-topic. So really, TT has every right to roll his eyes.
let's all either get back to topic - (original question)
- or kiss this one goodnight and put it to bed.
Up to you......:)
Said they where on Ramadan, I said " Fantastic"
and thats about it.
Anyone else have anything ?
* to do what we used to do here: acknowledge the major feasts of our brothers and sisters around the world - after all, we wish each other "Happy Christmas".
* to remind myself and us all that there is value in adopting a discipline and sticking to it. Fasting or reducing our food intake to enable mindful focus is common in most spiritual methodologies. To do it in community, as part of a sangha, umma or church, may support our practice and our determination.
* to highlight the fact that this festival, like the High Holidays of Judaism, includes the vital component of generosity as a focus for our action.
I am aware that there are many who reject the idea of 'self-denial' and, at the same time, I know that many of us live in societies where some consume far more than is needed to survive whilst millions do not have enough. This year, with the floods in Pakistan, India, Kashmir, China, observing Ramadan as it is intended can be a small gesture of support for our suffering brothers, sisters, parents, grandparents, children and grandchildren. There is something that keeps coming back to me (and I don't have a specific reference), presented to me a Buddhist notion: remember that each person you meet may have been your mother.
_________________________
It's kinda funny how anachronistic Ramadan seems from a Western tradition, based as is is on a solar calendar. The fact that Ramadan takes place January through December, depending on the year, can make the fast in the Land of the Midnight Sun a bit intolerable, But, as the following article points out, Muslims can simply follow the fasting times in Mecca.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherhowse/7931106/Ramadan-in-an-Orkney-summer.html
The above referenced article also touches on how the Ismailis are not obligated to fast during Ramadan and it also gives a very short history of how that came to be.
Here's an url I found listing dates for the beginning of Ramadan in the Western Calendar for several years:
http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/uk/ramadan-begins
These include:
!960: Feb 28
1965: Dec 24
1970: Oct 31
1975: Sep 7
1980: Jul 14
1985: May 21
1990: Mar 28
1995: Feb 1
2000: Nov 28
2005: Oct 5
2008: Sep 2
2010: Aug 11
2011: Aug 1
2012: Jul 20
2020: Apr 24
Hmmm..... I think at times, you should....
I dare say there are, most of the time....
Well, call me a neat-freak, but that's just the way it is rght now, and perhaps you'd better become accustomed to it.
Well if we can manage to have our heads on straight about some things, I'm sure with a bit of Right Effort, we can do likewise elsewhere.
well, I've asked people nicely, and I'm asking you, nicely.
Stick to topic, and keep to the subject being discussed.
I really do not see how it is too much to ask....;)
How does this relate to the topic as outlined in SimonthePilgrim's original post?
What does this have to do with his main point? :rolleyes:
(and don't ask me to read elsewhere, will you?)
Many years ago, I had a lover who was a Muslim prince. He warned me that, during Ramadan, despite all his efforts, he would probably become fractious and quarrelsome as the fast continued. How right he was! And what joy when we celebrated, with his extended family, the end of the holy month.
Most of us here, I imagine, are not fasting and yet we are getting as quarrelsome as an overtired kindergarten.
Please, dear friends, let us remember our commonalities rather than our differences.
Okay, then please...let's discuss what Buddhists and Muslims have in common. Feel free to make a list.
I once knew a few Muslims years ago in college (the mid-90's). They were mostly non-practicing. One of them became a great friend, though he was an international student and I lost touch with him when he moved out of the country. Because of these people, I actually had a very positive view of Islam. Granted, I knew nothing about Islam itself. Then came 9/11, and I felt compelled to study what Islam really taught.
I find it funny that moderate Muslims say that extremists aren't true Muslims. After doing a rather in-depth study of Islam, I'd say it's the other way around. The so-called extremists are living according to the letter of Islam, while it is the moderates who turn their backs on much of what Muhammed taught. And I think that's why moderates are so silent in their opposition to Islamists. They cannot support their own moderate views with the Koran or the hadiths, because fully accepting them abrogates any moderation.
Any thoughts?
Morality can also be found in rationality, because true rationality is morality. You do unto others, not because of retribution from heaven. You do unto others as you'd want them to do unto you because they're concious beings like you. You're not the whole universe. "You're" only a component of it.
That said, though, people believe what they believe. If it gives them a source of moral inspiration, then I'm cool with it. Yes, the Quran has some violent things in it, but so does the Bible. It says to kill homosexuals, says women are second to men, and to stone disobedient children. A lot of the same criticisms against the Quran can also be made about the Bible. Not all Christians and not all Muslims are literalists though. They focus mostly on the good and are completely oblivious to the bad. I hope one day that people can find God in reality and not in organized religion. People hold onto their cultural attachments that they're born into, and I don't think favouring Christianity over Islam is going to move us closer to a unified brotherhood of humanity. Don't trust the media that uses sensationalism to make money. Learn for yourself what your brothers and sisters in the world are like by getting to know them.
I agree with you. Sam Harris makes the same argument in that the moderates support the radicals without realizing it. Most Christians would quickly distance themselves from the likes of Fred Phelps (godhatesfags.com), but it is Phelps who has the letter of the Bible on his side, not the moderates who are unconcerned with a person's sexual identity. So when the moderates appeal to the Bible as a source of their compassion it validates the teachings of the Bible including 'the bad parts'.
It's darn near impossible for a moderate to say Phelp's isn't getting his direction from the same source as they are.
Having said that I was a Marine in Saudi Arabia and on a rare day of being allowed to go into town I got wasted drunk on a cruise ship that was there for our R and R day and then went in a cab with a local politician to wherever and then had to walk back to the ship. Problem was I didn't know how to get back and was drunk to the point I couldn't see straight. I walked through one neighborhood after another asking for help from people who spoke little to no English. In the end I made it back and unharmed. I can think of places in the US I likely wouldn't have been left unharmed so I don't think it's fair to say most or even a lot of Muslims are hateful or violent people. I found them to be 'eerily' normal.
I think it is truer to say that they have a larger percentage of Fred Phelp like individuals because they live in cultures that embrace such hatred and teach hatred to their children. They also often lack a system of laws that takes their violence seriously. It's a dangerous combination.
However I think that when it is done for a brief period of time it may help us to understand the plight of the homeless and poverty striken of the world and may help us to awaken a deeper sense of compassion.
Outside that I see no advantage to it.
That said, the fact the thread has changed into a debate on Islam...does it really matter in this case? I mean I suspect there is little interest in Ramadan from a Buddhist perspective, so if we stay on topic or culled the thread of off topic discussion...it is a pretty short thread and probably is done.
The truth is the concern over terrorism and radical islam, and the impact this has on moderate islam is important and clearly on people minds.
So this is predominantly a thread on Islam. Does it matter that it isn't in a separate thread from the OP really?
My biggest concern with Buddhists discussing Islam is our lack of understanding experientially what it is to be Muslim.
I've seen Buddhism discussed on Christian forums and it was disturbing to behold, because virtually all of it was incorrect, yet posters were convinced they were right, and were reinforcing incorrect beliefs about Buddhism in others.(to a point where posting as a Buddhist meant being attacked and disregarding my input in favour of the opinions of misinformed Christians...because all of us gravitate towards those we already agree with because we can feel more confidence in our opinions if someone else feels the same)
So perhaps a better direction would be to try to understand Islam (even the parts we think are bad....I say "understand", not necessarily "agree with") and look at what we as Buddhists can do to try to make the world safer and happier.
I do have to say though, Ol' Bodhidarma was onto something with this idea of "outside the scriptures, no reliance on words and letters". All these ancient books of extremely dubious authenticity, and in any event from different times and cultures do seem to cause a lot of trouble!:eek:
As far as federica's thoughts on culture...Things are of course different in Canada. We are a nation of immigrants save for native Canadians...and even they were immigrants at some point most experts say.
My Wife grew up near Vancouver in a city called Surrey. She grew up in an area that was of course predominantly white. Now Surrey is predominantly East indian (Mostly Sikh in terms of religion) and since they are now the majority, they very much act like it. There is an arrogance and sense of entitlement and it is palpable. I strongly suspect it is the very same arrogance and entitlement White immigrants showed to Natives.
I really bothers my Wife because part of her still feels that Surrey is home, but she is now a minority...a stranger in her home town. Of course this is turning into a kind of racism for her and she is beginning to resent all east Indians. (I maybe should add that she is not Buddhist
I try to avoid racist feelings, but I do understand why she feels this way. I also understand how the indo-Canadian community there has developed the arrogance. I suspect it has more to do with being part of the Human race than any religion or ethnicity.
And in the end what is all of it?............
Yep, you got it my Buddhist friends...ATTACHMENT causeing SUFFERING.
It is another confirmation of the truth Shakyamuni found, and we are living it.
Apologies for my ignorance, Mason's Child. Thank you for teaching me something new - and which I did not learn at my non-observant Jewish father's knee.
Also I'd like to add that it's really sad how in my country (the USA) people's obvious prejudice to muslims is so apparent. My uncle once called them "scum that washes up on our shores". I find the whole thing rather disheartening. Especially how my fellow Americans categorize them as "terrorists" for no reason except that they are muslim.
No truly honest person can claim they'd have no qualms about hundreds of foreigners moving into their block and changing the way everything looked. If neighborhoods in Holland don't want minarets towering over their windmills, I'm just not yet ready to call them bigots.