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You,
And I quote"Yet I must say it's better than having the poor creature slaughtered, hung up their necks"...
Ajani, Why on earth is better than having the poor creature killed . Surely a quick dead is better than the suffering that is endured by a hunt. The best out come would be to not hunt at all.
Yeah dammed right I was... I'm kinda pissed at the way they are treated prior to slaughter... Still I still say I'm a hamburger-eater, because well, they have died already, if you are not gonna eat them up, they are just gonna be chucked away at the end of the week, wasting their sacrifice in life to bring us their meat...
True, there are those that say demand and supply. Heck! You think they really care about how many chickens are needed? They only care about how many percent of the farm they kill to meet the bare minimum of hygiene inspections!
"I'm a hamburger-eater, because well, they have died already"
Thats convient for you.
Herman Hesse...can you honestly say that you have never bought anything because it was "convienent"?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2005
.....And what could be more convenient than an apple?!
I read an Ayurvedic book by a Swami who practised as a mendicant and he stated that if one had to survive on just three 'food' ingredients, the best and most balanced would be Apples, Olives and Almonds. he felt that these three contain all the nutrients the body requires. I'm not sure how correct he is, and I think you'd get pretty bored after a while... I am furthermore not aware as to what quantities one would have to consume to satisfy nutritional requirement.... all I know is that I have tried both fresh-picked almonds and apples - and they're LUSH!!
Olives HAVE to be treated in brine first.... but I'm rather partial to these too!
Oh, and at least two to three litres of water per day, too. He was quite clear on that.
I might try the above as an experiment for a week, and let you all know how I get on.....
usual caveats' about being in good health, not more than a short time, etc....
I know a lot about Ayurveda and I find it all very interesting. Me, my hubby and my daughter all eat apples and almonds daily, and olives 1-2 times a week, so it's good to know we are getting some of the nutrients that our bodies require! I wonder what is in olives that makes them so nutritional? I know they have the "good fat" your body needs, but other than that, I have no clue!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2005
....Who knows? maybe it's the seed? I hope not.... Those things are so damned hard - I have never managed to scrunch one with my teeth yet! How do the little Boogers ever manage to germinate - ?!?
The Greeks knew the truth! To them, the olive tree is Athena's gift to humanity.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2005
.... I hope then that as she left no written instructions that we're doing it right!!
Actually, it IS an extremely versatile tree, and Olive Wood is so beautiful and has a wonderful grain to it... I have a small rolling pin my mother bought me in italy, made of Olive wood.... it's absolutely ideal, strangely enough, for rolling out the most perfect chuppattis....
The leaves are fragrant when burned, and the wood burns like hornbeam...
Uh-oh, I think we have gone off topic again. Let's see.....do you think ding dongs are considered a vegetarian item, or vegan? I don't eat ding dongs, but I can only imagine that the "creamy center" consists of some sort of animal lard, so I am going to guess that they are not a vegan item!
Yogamama quoted" Herman Hesse...can you honestly say that you have never bought anything because it was "convienent"?
I can honestly say I have always been mindful since I was a young guy as to what I would purchase. With the exeption of Nike trainers I think most of my purchases stand up to scruntiny. I have over the years been ridiculed for my high standards.
I have never felt like bending when it comes to buying food at the market especially when I am conscious that the product has lived just for my fellow man to kill it.
Of course I must be wrong because I am in a minority or at least an extremist.
My point is this, no matter how humble, polite or mindful we are we can't all be right can we .Someone has to be wrong and sometimes it is always a minority view point.
I don't believe for one minute that the people on the world want to eat meat that is pumped full of poison.
Our diet is killing us, be mindful of that. Just look at the size of the kids in your street compared to when you were a child. What are we doing?
Meat is part of the problem just look at the Europe with mad cow...
I suspect that this thread has done the full circle, for me it is all about personal choice and freedom to pursue one's own dietary decisions. I was once married to a vegetarian, our child was also raised as a vegetarian. When I split from my ex I continued to respect HER decision that our daughter be raised as a vegetarian, this included feeding her in this manner. I tried very hard to follow this route myself, however due to a dislike of many of the staple foods required to do so I chose to revert to being a meat eater albeit with a degree of mindfulness.
I believe that as a result of pressure brought to bear by both omnivores and vegertarians the food industry has made inroads into animal welfare but still have a long way to go. I would like to point out however that I have always been a little wary of raising a child from a very early age to be a vegertarian, my daughter has been and is still very overweight and my ex constantly suffered "digestive" issues with her dietary choices. I appreciate that far more is now known about the correct nutritional requirements needed by an individual determined to be either a vegertarian or vegan.
Herman you made your choice at about 20 years old, the point is it was your choice. I believe that with something as fundamental as diet and religion the choice should be made by the individual, by denying a child freedom of choice is to me restricting the personal freedom that should be bestowed on every individual as a fundamental right.
I was constantly told by my daughter that she had considered trying meat, however she was afraid of upsetting her mother in doing so. I explained this to her mum who swiftly spoke to our daughter and reconfirmined the reasons why THEY should not eat meat. I no longer see my daughter for reasons that are not relevant to this thread...
Ok...Abraham firstly thank you for sharing that with me. I appreciate you have an opinion and it seems to very well founded. I acknowledge everything you say in your last thread.
Yes a applaud your right to choose for yourself or your child.
You strike me a man that made a considered and informed choice. You have obviously thought and thought again on the issues that surround this debate.
I acknowledge also that Veggie food is always the healthier option ie GM products.
Its a life issue for me and as I pointed out in a previous post I find the eating of meat spirtually damaging.
The problem for me is when people sit on the fence. Its the whole " I shop therefore I am thing" I just question the freedom of choice for the animal.
You are right , diet should be a childs choice.....man its a tough one.
My point is this, no matter how humble, polite or mindful we are we can't all be right can we .Someone has to be wrong and sometimes it is always a minority view point.
I don't believe for one minute that the people on the world want to eat meat that is pumped full of poison.
Our diet is killing us, be mindful of that. Just look at the size of the kids in your street compared to when you were a child. What are we doing?
Meat is part of the problem just look at the Europe with mad cow...
You're preaching to the choir here!! I could not possibly be more mindful of my diet and my family's diet - especially when it come to my daughter. I am vegan (with the exception of ice cream once in a while!), and my husband eats meat maybe once a month. But, you can bet that if my daughter wants to eat meat as she gets older, I will not judge her for it or tell her it is wrong. She will know how to make healthy choices and that is all that matters to me.
All I am trying to tell you is to not be so attached to the vegetarian label that it causes suffering for you and/or others.
I do not believe that everyone here is "on the fence" about this issue. The simple fact is you feel that eating meat is wrong and spiritually damaging. Ok, fine. Many others in the world, as well as on this forum will agree with you on that. It is a very fair and understandable opinion based on the facts and personal preferences.
However, not everyone sees it the way you do. Many other people do not feel that eating meat is wrong or spiritually damaging. You are right, the animal does not always have a choice in the matter of what I eat. The animals quite often get the short end of the stick in that respect. But, do all humans get a choice in what happens to them everyday? Can you choose if you want to get sick? Or, can you decide to not have the cancer that is eating away at your organs? Life can be a very unpleasant thing. My mother certainly did not ask for cancer. I never asked to be anemic. That is, however unpleasant, just one of the meanings of "dukkha".
The world is designed for some species to eat other species while other species eat plants and/or use other sources of nutriment i.e. sunlight. Human beings can eat either plants, animals, or a combination of both. If that bothers you I am sorry. Unfortunately, I cannot change the world to be any other way. From the dawn of time life has been used to sustain other life. Viruses and bacteria use human, as well as animal bodies to grow and multiple, often at the cost of the host's own life. Is it fair? Should it be allowed because bacteria (and possibly viruses depending on your view of life) are living things? These are questions that I do not have the answers to. They are very personal and morally based questions. It basically boils down to who you deicide is worth living. If you feel animals are worth it because _____, but bugs like mosquitoes and flies, or illness causing bacteria are not worth it because _____ ,then you are just playing "God".
The simple truth is that whatever I may believe to be the best way is not what is necessarily the best way. It is just what I feel is right. I have no problem with your choice. If you are able to sustain yourself on a strictly vegetarian and feel healthier physically, as well as spiritually, then I am very happy for you. Quite honestly I might add. It takes a lot of effort to live that way. However, I do not feel the same about it as you do. I agree that the animals could (and should in my opinion) be treated better, but I also feel that we as a species eat animals for a reason. They are sources of nutrition and energy.
My views are a mixture of personal preferences combined with the Buddha's teachings. I in no way try to force my beliefs onto people, nor do I criticize those that see it differently. That is one thing that has disturbed me about this discussion, though. You appear to me to be critical of those of us that choose to eat meat, and attack our reasoning for our choices. If you do not agree with eating meat that is ok. You are free to express your opinions and the reasons for why you feel that way. But, you can do this without being argumentative and confrontational. I myself am much more open to new ideas when those sharing the new ideas, or information, does so in a respectful way.
On this issue nobody is "right" and nobody is "wrong". It is more correct to say that either I agree with an idea, or I disagree with an idea for whatever reason. No one single person on this planet has the authority to say, "This is the only correct way, and everything else is the wrong way." We may feel very strongly about a subject, and that our view is the correct view, but we are not the last word on it - we are simple a "part" of it.
Please feel free to express your views and ideas on this subject, or any others that you wish, but kindly do so with respect to the other members of the forum. That is all we really ask.
Do you even know what is IN a ding dong??? You should be thanking me!!
Well, given their shelf-life...Ms. Smartypants...
I would say they have a good dose of:
Chocolate (for flavor)
Flour (for texture)
Egg/Petroleum Biproduct (for God knows what)
Partially Hydrogenized Fat (to grease the skids)
Fat (more greasing of the skids)
More Fat (like sh!@ through a goose!)
White Food Color Dye #14867 (for the creamy filling...yum)
Uranium (preservative)
Plutonium (preservative)
I'm sure there is also some sort of road tar that is used to give it that yummy, glossy coating.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I don't believe for one minute that the people on the world want to eat meat that is pumped full of poison.
On this point, I cannot disagree with you Herman, the hormones and drugs we're giving to animals to make meat and milk production more lucrative is frightening. Coupled with the diet of meat/offal and waste animal products we are using as a food supplement for them, which in itself is horrifying... And if you try to buy organic, you're paying through the nose. organic is not so easy to get in France, but this situation is improving.
But what is 'Organic' exactly?
My mother has a friend who works for a cosmetics company, who use herbal essences and plants as main base-ingredients. They decided to go organic two years ago, so started rotating crops, planting fields which had previously grown herbs, with mustard, and green fertilizer crops, to cleanse the soil... the transformation was set to take three years - until a Biologist pointed out that it would take TWENTY YEARS to completely cleanse the soil of any chemicals or artificial fertilizers/pesticides.... Add to that the fact that all rain is not organic, due to the evaporation of chemicals within the water mollecules.... acid rain, yes? - what to do? Nothing is ever truly Organic.
Our diet is killing us, be mindful of that. Just look at the size of the kids in your street compared to when you were a child. What are we doing?
[/QUOTE]
We as human beings, and as such, part of the animal kingdom, are the only ones to have structured our dietary habits into three tidy regular meals. All other animals graze, or eat when they need to, or are hungry, and don't, when they're not. I've never seen an overweight, out of condition gazelle or cheetah, in the wild....
We eat far too much, and far too regularly. I well remember my grandmother telling me "If you don't finish your dinner, you'll get no pudding! " Dammit, if I ate all my dinner, I had no ROOM for pudding!! Stuf stuff stuff!!
Fortunately, I am now a slim,elegant,svelte stunning creature....:D And I think I may try this grazing lark... eat what I want, when I want in smaller quantities...
Lack of exercise, too much tv/gameboys/computers and rides to school are also factors...
" Viruses and bacteria use human, as well as animal bodies to grow and multiple, often at the cost of the host's own life. Is it fair? Should it be allowed because bacteria (and possibly viruses depending on your view of life) are living things? These are questions that I do not have the answers to. They are very personal and morally based questions. It basically boils down to who you deicide is worth living. If you feel animals are worth it because _____, but bugs like mosquitoes and flies, or illness causing bacteria are not worth it because _____ ,then you are just playing "God".
I thought as a Buddhist you believed we have our own opportunity to shape the lives we lead. That is based on making an informed choice. If you believe god exists then he can exist in you. You can make such a choice based on an informed opinion. You might be talking around other issues here. I think there was another debate surrounding Stem Cell Research.
Quote:
"Quite honestly I might add. It takes a lot of effort to live that way. However, I do not feel the same about it as you do. I agree that the animals could (and should in my opinion) be treated better, but I also feel that we as a species eat animals for a reason. They are sources of nutrition and energy."
Please let me assure you it take no effort at all. It is part of my life just like breathing. I have mentioned in an early thread that it is market forces that make the case to eat meat.
There are may different, tasty ways, easy and healthy opinions for those who wish to become a vegetarian. Please take a look a this link below.
Yogamama you said and I quote " All I am trying to tell you is to not be so attached to the vegetarian label that it causes suffering for you and/or others".
It is that detached attitude that worries me. It's very handy to use when an issue gets real.
I guess you could apply that to many different things. Just think about applying that statement to a debate that surrounds the Third World debt. Our the reform that needed around the US Health and Medical provisions.
People are driven by passion and belief.It part of what pushes this world forward. What examples do you need...say Aung San Suu Kyi maybe she just a little caught in the whole issue of democracy( I believe she is a buddhist).
I wish to point that I am not stupid or deluded enough to believe that I am the head of some Underground Veggie liberation front (you know like in the Jean Pierre Jeunet movie delicatessen ). But passion is part of what makes us Human. I'm a believer in Humanity like you I am sure.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Please let me assure you it take no effort at all. It is part of my life just like breathing.
.
Just as it takes no effort at all for some to be meat eaters. They were raised that way, they continued that way, they're comfortable and happy that way and they choose to stay that way. You became a vegetarian a long time ago. But before that, presumably then, you ate meat. Yogamama is raising her child a vegetarian - just as you were raised with meat. She's quite open, willing and eager to permit her child to have the choice - just as you took yours later. Converse events, but both valid....
I have mentioned in an early thread that it is market forces that make the case to eat meat.
It is equally market forces that make the case for eating vegetables, fruits, eggs, cheese, tofu, quorn and soya.
The Food Industry world-wide is one of the most poweful forces on the planet. You may see strings of adverts about cars, the cosmetics industry, toys, insurance, debt and compensation. But they will always, at some point or another, have a food advert in there somewhere...
There are may different, tasty ways, easy and healthy opinions for those who wish to become a vegetarian. Please take a look a this link below.
The key word here then, is "wish".... isn't it Herman?
Implying that even with ALL the biased/unbiased, clear/obscure, truthful/dishonest, lucid/prejudiced information available, it still all comes down to Choice.
I did look up the vegetarian/vegan site, and this is one of the things the chef had to say:
"Q: Many foods contain hidden non-vegetarian ingredients, so can you really trust the 'vegetarian' sign in non-veggie restaurants? Do chefs understand what is vegetarian and what is not?
A: No, I don’t believe you can always trust that the vegetarian option will be fully vegetarian in a non-vegetarian restaurant. I would be surprised if most of the cheese they use is vegetarian, for example there is no such thing as vegetarian parmesan. Pecorino cheese is also traditionally not vegetarian but I get a fantastic veggie cheese that's similar in style from South Wales. I would also be surprised if they do actually use separate knives and pans for the veggie/non-veggie stuff."
So you see, even with the very best of intentions.... and I have already mentioned how far behind France is with its attitude towards vegetarianism and suitable substitute products....
Of course I must be wrong because I am in a minority or at least an extremist.
Only you have said this. Only you have repeated it. Is this what you believe? Or are you really just having a bit of a gentle poke at us...Huh? Huh? You cheeky boy....!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yogamama you said and I quote " All I am trying to tell you is to not be so attached to the vegetarian label that it causes suffering for you and/or others".
It is that detached attitude that worries me. QUOTE]
Herman, just a question...
Do you understand what YogaMama meant by referring to Attachment in the Buddhist sense....? Please don't think that I'm trying to be clever, here, I'd just like to clarify... not trying to 'Teach Grandma to Suck Eggs'....
Talk about animal abuse.....we have been beating this dead horse for a while now!!!!
Herman....I do not have a detached attitude when it comes to being vegetarian/vegan nor do I have a detached attitude when it comes to my health, or my daughters or husbands health. Nor do I have a detahced attitude when it comes to protecting animals! The difference between me and you is that I do not push my beliefs onto others...and if others decide to eat meat, I am ok with that. What is right for you is not right for everyone else. PERIOD. It's ok to have strong beliefs about things and to be passionate about those things, but IMO, it is not ok to force those beliefs onto others. Like I said...it will only cause suffering for you and others. And like Jason pointed out, forcing your beliefs and opinoins onto others only causes those other people to resist even more.
I do not simply use a detached attitude when "issues get real". If you knew me at all, you would know that could not be further from the truth. I just handle it differently than you.
This has been pointed out before, but I will point it out again.....do you only eat the vegetables that you grow in your backyard? You have said before that you purchase items from a grocery store - do you have any idea how many insects, etc are killed in the process of farming fruits and vegetables? Do you think that the life of a million insects is less valuable than the life of one cow?
I think everyone has pointed out their feelings very well as well as on the last post regarding this subject.
I think that everyone has pretty much made their feelings known and being one that has kind of ignored this thread (expect for all my smart-mouth comments regarding women and Ding Dongs) I wonder where it's all heading?
I don't think anyone is going to change due to the various posts in this thread. In fact, if someone was "thinking" about changing from "eating meat" to "eating veggies" - that's probably out of the window now.
I don't mean to sound like a condescending parent, but I'm wondering if we are all at the point where we've figured out what we are going to do with our daily lives - and then just be.
And if by some of the very informative posts on this thread - we decide or come to the realization that more change is needed - then that's great.
This is a topic that comes up time and again in discussion about Buddhism. I think that we have provided any newbies with full, frank and, indeed, passionate 'food for thought'.
bf - is that your polite way of telling me to shut my pie-hole?
Me?
Think that I should be telling someone like you to shut their pie-hole?
Honestly... never.
I have no right or privilage to do anything like that.
And even though I've opened my yap more than I need to (regarding some subjects) - I just wouldn't want to see a thread turn into something that causes someone any angst or discomfort - when this is just, what could be viewed as, a silly forum on the internet.
We definitely don't need anymore upset in our lives, eh?
QUOTE: "I thought as a Buddhist you believed we have our own opportunity to shape the lives we lead. That is based on making an informed choice. If you believe god exists then he can exist in you. You can make such a choice based on an informed opinion. You might be talking around other issues here. I think there was another debate surrounding Stem Cell Research."
Herman,
As a Buddhist, if you wish to call me that, I do believe that we have an opportunity to shape the lives we lead; however as a "Buddhist" I also believe that we have the oppurtunity to put down all tahna (craving) to those very same lives.
I do not believe in a creator "God" personally, I was merely using it as a metaphor. For us as human beings to decide which living entities deserve to live and which derserve to die is to me playing "God". The point I was attempting to make was, "What gives us the right to say a cow should live, but a fly which carries diseases shouldn't? Are they not both living, breathing creatures?".
It is just a moral arguement that can never be won. There can be no right or wrong answer because those very same answers are conditioned on the morals of the person who perceives them. If I perceive eating meat as being ok then my answer is based off of that perception. If you perceieve eating meat as being bad then your answer is based off of that perception. Like all things in this world, however, perceptions are dukkha (stressful), anicca (impermanent), and anatta (not-self).
My whole point is that as a "Buddhist" I am working on transcending these conditioned, and limited views. To see the ultimate and objective nature of the question is the only way I will have a truly "informed" answer. Until such time, what I say is merely my opinion based on the conditioned ideas, morals, and perceptions which arise from a mind infected by greed, hatred, and delusion. Whatever I say, for one side or the other, will be conditioned on those three defilements.
I in no way agree that killing animals is right, but I also do not agree that it is wrong. The reason why I say this is that I have not seen this qestion objectively, through wisdom. I have only see it through my prejudices. Do you understand where I am coming from? I apologize because I am unable to articulate exactly what I am trying to say. I hope that my points are some what clear. If you are viewing my words in context to everyday language then you will miss the essence of what I am sharing, however, if you are viewing my words from a "Buddhist" percspective then you will better see what I am attempting to say.
Unfortunately, the others on this forum believe that the proverbial dead horse has been severely beaten, so I will say no more on the subject. Whatever your choices in life, I hope that you all may find peace in that which is "Unconditioned".
Unfortunately, the others on this forum believe that the proverbial dead horse has been severely beaten, so I will say no more on the subject. Whatever your choices in life, I hope that you all may find peace in that which is "Unconditioned".
Jason
I hope you aren't saying that because of what I said. I don't mind discussing this topic at all...in fact, I enjoy it! I always enjoy a nice, friendly debate!
I think you expressed that very clearly, Elohim. You illustrate the difference between detachment and non-attachment. As a Buddhist (i.y.w.t.c.m.t.), it is the state of non-attachment that I strive to cultivate because, therein, I can remain a passionate person too!
It was my dry humour sneaking out. I find it funny because both my girlfriend and I use that phrase quite often. I just don't feel that I have anything else useful to add, so I'm "bowing out" as gracefully as I possibly can.
Simon,
I'm glad that you understood what I was trying to say. At least I know that my English language skills have improved immensely from all my posting here!
Comments
And I quote"Yet I must say it's better than having the poor creature slaughtered, hung up their necks"...
Ajani, Why on earth is better than having the poor creature killed . Surely a quick dead is better than the suffering that is endured by a hunt. The best out come would be to not hunt at all.
Would you die running off from enemy and dying from a shot OR
would you die seeing the rest of your gang falling down, knowing you'd be next?
True, there are those that say demand and supply. Heck! You think they really care about how many chickens are needed? They only care about how many percent of the farm they kill to meet the bare minimum of hygiene inspections!
Thats convient for you.
Herman Hesse...can you honestly say that you have never bought anything because it was "convienent"?
I read an Ayurvedic book by a Swami who practised as a mendicant and he stated that if one had to survive on just three 'food' ingredients, the best and most balanced would be Apples, Olives and Almonds. he felt that these three contain all the nutrients the body requires. I'm not sure how correct he is, and I think you'd get pretty bored after a while... I am furthermore not aware as to what quantities one would have to consume to satisfy nutritional requirement.... all I know is that I have tried both fresh-picked almonds and apples - and they're LUSH!!
Olives HAVE to be treated in brine first.... but I'm rather partial to these too!
Oh, and at least two to three litres of water per day, too. He was quite clear on that.
I might try the above as an experiment for a week, and let you all know how I get on.....
usual caveats' about being in good health, not more than a short time, etc....
Actually, it IS an extremely versatile tree, and Olive Wood is so beautiful and has a wonderful grain to it... I have a small rolling pin my mother bought me in italy, made of Olive wood.... it's absolutely ideal, strangely enough, for rolling out the most perfect chuppattis....
The leaves are fragrant when burned, and the wood burns like hornbeam...
oleaginous
/oliajinss/
• adjective 1 oily or greasy. 2 exaggeratedly complimentary; obsequious.
— ORIGIN Latin oleaginus ‘of the olive tree’.
Doubly
Ding Dongs are like a beautiful woman too. They are wads of chocolate cake, covered in chocolate with a creamy center.
Okay...maybe women aren't exactly like Ding Dongs - but you can still cover them in chocolate.
-bf
I can honestly say I have always been mindful since I was a young guy as to what I would purchase. With the exeption of Nike trainers I think most of my purchases stand up to scruntiny. I have over the years been ridiculed for my high standards.
I have never felt like bending when it comes to buying food at the market especially when I am conscious that the product has lived just for my fellow man to kill it.
Of course I must be wrong because I am in a minority or at least an extremist.
You don't want to know.... trust me.
Mmmmmmmm....lard.
Abe? One Ding Dong comin' up!
-bf
I was just trying to be as eloquent as Simon.
YodaMama... you're just like "The Man" - always trying to repress me and the Ding Dongs...
Fight The Power - Viva la Ding Dongs!
-bf
I don't believe for one minute that the people on the world want to eat meat that is pumped full of poison.
Our diet is killing us, be mindful of that. Just look at the size of the kids in your street compared to when you were a child. What are we doing?
Meat is part of the problem just look at the Europe with mad cow...
I believe that as a result of pressure brought to bear by both omnivores and vegertarians the food industry has made inroads into animal welfare but still have a long way to go. I would like to point out however that I have always been a little wary of raising a child from a very early age to be a vegertarian, my daughter has been and is still very overweight and my ex constantly suffered "digestive" issues with her dietary choices. I appreciate that far more is now known about the correct nutritional requirements needed by an individual determined to be either a vegertarian or vegan.
Herman you made your choice at about 20 years old, the point is it was your choice. I believe that with something as fundamental as diet and religion the choice should be made by the individual, by denying a child freedom of choice is to me restricting the personal freedom that should be bestowed on every individual as a fundamental right.
I was constantly told by my daughter that she had considered trying meat, however she was afraid of upsetting her mother in doing so. I explained this to her mum who swiftly spoke to our daughter and reconfirmined the reasons why THEY should not eat meat. I no longer see my daughter for reasons that are not relevant to this thread...
Yes a applaud your right to choose for yourself or your child.
You strike me a man that made a considered and informed choice. You have obviously thought and thought again on the issues that surround this debate.
I acknowledge also that Veggie food is always the healthier option ie GM products.
Its a life issue for me and as I pointed out in a previous post I find the eating of meat spirtually damaging.
The problem for me is when people sit on the fence. Its the whole " I shop therefore I am thing" I just question the freedom of choice for the animal.
You are right , diet should be a childs choice.....man its a tough one.
Thank you for getting off the fence.
You're preaching to the choir here!!
All I am trying to tell you is to not be so attached to the vegetarian label that it causes suffering for you and/or others.
Do you even know what is IN a ding dong??? You should be thanking me!!
I do not believe that everyone here is "on the fence" about this issue. The simple fact is you feel that eating meat is wrong and spiritually damaging. Ok, fine. Many others in the world, as well as on this forum will agree with you on that. It is a very fair and understandable opinion based on the facts and personal preferences.
However, not everyone sees it the way you do. Many other people do not feel that eating meat is wrong or spiritually damaging. You are right, the animal does not always have a choice in the matter of what I eat. The animals quite often get the short end of the stick in that respect. But, do all humans get a choice in what happens to them everyday? Can you choose if you want to get sick? Or, can you decide to not have the cancer that is eating away at your organs? Life can be a very unpleasant thing. My mother certainly did not ask for cancer. I never asked to be anemic. That is, however unpleasant, just one of the meanings of "dukkha".
The world is designed for some species to eat other species while other species eat plants and/or use other sources of nutriment i.e. sunlight. Human beings can eat either plants, animals, or a combination of both. If that bothers you I am sorry. Unfortunately, I cannot change the world to be any other way. From the dawn of time life has been used to sustain other life. Viruses and bacteria use human, as well as animal bodies to grow and multiple, often at the cost of the host's own life. Is it fair? Should it be allowed because bacteria (and possibly viruses depending on your view of life) are living things? These are questions that I do not have the answers to. They are very personal and morally based questions. It basically boils down to who you deicide is worth living. If you feel animals are worth it because _____, but bugs like mosquitoes and flies, or illness causing bacteria are not worth it because _____ ,then you are just playing "God".
The simple truth is that whatever I may believe to be the best way is not what is necessarily the best way. It is just what I feel is right. I have no problem with your choice. If you are able to sustain yourself on a strictly vegetarian and feel healthier physically, as well as spiritually, then I am very happy for you. Quite honestly I might add. It takes a lot of effort to live that way. However, I do not feel the same about it as you do. I agree that the animals could (and should in my opinion) be treated better, but I also feel that we as a species eat animals for a reason. They are sources of nutrition and energy.
My views are a mixture of personal preferences combined with the Buddha's teachings. I in no way try to force my beliefs onto people, nor do I criticize those that see it differently. That is one thing that has disturbed me about this discussion, though. You appear to me to be critical of those of us that choose to eat meat, and attack our reasoning for our choices. If you do not agree with eating meat that is ok. You are free to express your opinions and the reasons for why you feel that way. But, you can do this without being argumentative and confrontational. I myself am much more open to new ideas when those sharing the new ideas, or information, does so in a respectful way.
On this issue nobody is "right" and nobody is "wrong". It is more correct to say that either I agree with an idea, or I disagree with an idea for whatever reason. No one single person on this planet has the authority to say, "This is the only correct way, and everything else is the wrong way." We may feel very strongly about a subject, and that our view is the correct view, but we are not the last word on it - we are simple a "part" of it.
Please feel free to express your views and ideas on this subject, or any others that you wish, but kindly do so with respect to the other members of the forum. That is all we really ask.
Jason
Well, given their shelf-life...Ms. Smartypants...
I would say they have a good dose of:
Chocolate (for flavor)
Flour (for texture)
Egg/Petroleum Biproduct (for God knows what)
Partially Hydrogenized Fat (to grease the skids)
Fat (more greasing of the skids)
More Fat (like sh!@ through a goose!)
White Food Color Dye #14867 (for the creamy filling...yum)
Uranium (preservative)
Plutonium (preservative)
I'm sure there is also some sort of road tar that is used to give it that yummy, glossy coating.
-bf
On this point, I cannot disagree with you Herman, the hormones and drugs we're giving to animals to make meat and milk production more lucrative is frightening. Coupled with the diet of meat/offal and waste animal products we are using as a food supplement for them, which in itself is horrifying... And if you try to buy organic, you're paying through the nose. organic is not so easy to get in France, but this situation is improving.
But what is 'Organic' exactly?
My mother has a friend who works for a cosmetics company, who use herbal essences and plants as main base-ingredients. They decided to go organic two years ago, so started rotating crops, planting fields which had previously grown herbs, with mustard, and green fertilizer crops, to cleanse the soil... the transformation was set to take three years - until a Biologist pointed out that it would take TWENTY YEARS to completely cleanse the soil of any chemicals or artificial fertilizers/pesticides.... Add to that the fact that all rain is not organic, due to the evaporation of chemicals within the water mollecules.... acid rain, yes? - what to do? Nothing is ever truly Organic.
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We as human beings, and as such, part of the animal kingdom, are the only ones to have structured our dietary habits into three tidy regular meals. All other animals graze, or eat when they need to, or are hungry, and don't, when they're not. I've never seen an overweight, out of condition gazelle or cheetah, in the wild....
We eat far too much, and far too regularly. I well remember my grandmother telling me "If you don't finish your dinner, you'll get no pudding! " Dammit, if I ate all my dinner, I had no ROOM for pudding!! Stuf stuff stuff!!
Fortunately, I am now a slim,elegant,svelte stunning creature....:D And I think I may try this grazing lark... eat what I want, when I want in smaller quantities...
Lack of exercise, too much tv/gameboys/computers and rides to school are also factors...
" Viruses and bacteria use human, as well as animal bodies to grow and multiple, often at the cost of the host's own life. Is it fair? Should it be allowed because bacteria (and possibly viruses depending on your view of life) are living things? These are questions that I do not have the answers to. They are very personal and morally based questions. It basically boils down to who you deicide is worth living. If you feel animals are worth it because _____, but bugs like mosquitoes and flies, or illness causing bacteria are not worth it because _____ ,then you are just playing "God".
I thought as a Buddhist you believed we have our own opportunity to shape the lives we lead. That is based on making an informed choice. If you believe god exists then he can exist in you. You can make such a choice based on an informed opinion. You might be talking around other issues here. I think there was another debate surrounding Stem Cell Research.
Quote:
"Quite honestly I might add. It takes a lot of effort to live that way. However, I do not feel the same about it as you do. I agree that the animals could (and should in my opinion) be treated better, but I also feel that we as a species eat animals for a reason. They are sources of nutrition and energy."
Please let me assure you it take no effort at all. It is part of my life just like breathing. I have mentioned in an early thread that it is market forces that make the case to eat meat.
There are may different, tasty ways, easy and healthy opinions for those who wish to become a vegetarian. Please take a look a this link below.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/vegetarian_and_vegan/
It is that detached attitude that worries me. It's very handy to use when an issue gets real.
I guess you could apply that to many different things. Just think about applying that statement to a debate that surrounds the Third World debt. Our the reform that needed around the US Health and Medical provisions.
People are driven by passion and belief.It part of what pushes this world forward. What examples do you need...say Aung San Suu Kyi maybe she just a little caught in the whole issue of democracy( I believe she is a buddhist).
I wish to point that I am not stupid or deluded enough to believe that I am the head of some Underground Veggie liberation front (you know like in the Jean Pierre Jeunet movie delicatessen ). But passion is part of what makes us Human. I'm a believer in Humanity like you I am sure.
Only you have said this. Only you have repeated it. Is this what you believe? Or are you really just having a bit of a gentle poke at us...Huh? Huh? You cheeky boy....!
Herman....I do not have a detached attitude when it comes to being vegetarian/vegan nor do I have a detached attitude when it comes to my health, or my daughters or husbands health. Nor do I have a detahced attitude when it comes to protecting animals! The difference between me and you is that I do not push my beliefs onto others...and if others decide to eat meat, I am ok with that. What is right for you is not right for everyone else. PERIOD. It's ok to have strong beliefs about things and to be passionate about those things, but IMO, it is not ok to force those beliefs onto others. Like I said...it will only cause suffering for you and others. And like Jason pointed out, forcing your beliefs and opinoins onto others only causes those other people to resist even more.
I do not simply use a detached attitude when "issues get real". If you knew me at all, you would know that could not be further from the truth. I just handle it differently than you.
This has been pointed out before, but I will point it out again.....do you only eat the vegetables that you grow in your backyard? You have said before that you purchase items from a grocery store - do you have any idea how many insects, etc are killed in the process of farming fruits and vegetables? Do you think that the life of a million insects is less valuable than the life of one cow?
This is really turning into quote a topic.
I think everyone has pointed out their feelings very well as well as on the last post regarding this subject.
I think that everyone has pretty much made their feelings known and being one that has kind of ignored this thread (expect for all my smart-mouth comments regarding women and Ding Dongs) I wonder where it's all heading?
I don't think anyone is going to change due to the various posts in this thread. In fact, if someone was "thinking" about changing from "eating meat" to "eating veggies" - that's probably out of the window now.
I don't mean to sound like a condescending parent, but I'm wondering if we are all at the point where we've figured out what we are going to do with our daily lives - and then just be.
And if by some of the very informative posts on this thread - we decide or come to the realization that more change is needed - then that's great.
Is this just naivity on my part?
-bf
Now what kind of Pie would that be??:tongue2:
Me?
Think that I should be telling someone like you to shut their pie-hole?
Honestly... never.
I have no right or privilage to do anything like that.
And even though I've opened my yap more than I need to (regarding some subjects) - I just wouldn't want to see a thread turn into something that causes someone any angst or discomfort - when this is just, what could be viewed as, a silly forum on the internet.
We definitely don't need anymore upset in our lives, eh?
-bf
Herman,
As a Buddhist, if you wish to call me that, I do believe that we have an opportunity to shape the lives we lead; however as a "Buddhist" I also believe that we have the oppurtunity to put down all tahna (craving) to those very same lives.
I do not believe in a creator "God" personally, I was merely using it as a metaphor. For us as human beings to decide which living entities deserve to live and which derserve to die is to me playing "God". The point I was attempting to make was, "What gives us the right to say a cow should live, but a fly which carries diseases shouldn't? Are they not both living, breathing creatures?".
It is just a moral arguement that can never be won. There can be no right or wrong answer because those very same answers are conditioned on the morals of the person who perceives them. If I perceive eating meat as being ok then my answer is based off of that perception. If you perceieve eating meat as being bad then your answer is based off of that perception. Like all things in this world, however, perceptions are dukkha (stressful), anicca (impermanent), and anatta (not-self).
My whole point is that as a "Buddhist" I am working on transcending these conditioned, and limited views. To see the ultimate and objective nature of the question is the only way I will have a truly "informed" answer. Until such time, what I say is merely my opinion based on the conditioned ideas, morals, and perceptions which arise from a mind infected by greed, hatred, and delusion. Whatever I say, for one side or the other, will be conditioned on those three defilements.
I in no way agree that killing animals is right, but I also do not agree that it is wrong. The reason why I say this is that I have not seen this qestion objectively, through wisdom. I have only see it through my prejudices. Do you understand where I am coming from? I apologize because I am unable to articulate exactly what I am trying to say. I hope that my points are some what clear. If you are viewing my words in context to everyday language then you will miss the essence of what I am sharing, however, if you are viewing my words from a "Buddhist" percspective then you will better see what I am attempting to say.
Unfortunately, the others on this forum believe that the proverbial dead horse has been severely beaten, so I will say no more on the subject. Whatever your choices in life, I hope that you all may find peace in that which is "Unconditioned".
Jason
I hope you aren't saying that because of what I said. I don't mind discussing this topic at all...in fact, I enjoy it! I always enjoy a nice, friendly debate!
It was my dry humour sneaking out.
Simon,
I'm glad that you understood what I was trying to say. At least I know that my English language skills have improved immensely from all my posting here!
Jason
And I also understood what you were trying to say in your post. I was trying to say the same thing as you - you just did a better job of it!