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Do you need to be a monk/nun...

ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
edited August 2010 in Buddhism Basics
... to have any real chance of attaining Nirvana?

Probably another naive question, but meh. It seems all the wise people whose writings I am reading are, or have been monastics, and I can see how not having the distractions of a job, mortgage, bills etc would be beneficial to the practice of the dharma.
Are there any lay people who have acheived awakening?

Comments

  • PietroPumokinPietroPumokin
    edited August 2010
    monks / nuns have smaller if not zero chance of attaining nirvana
    but to do it right you've got to be a lay monastic that is live like a monk as well as you can, emanate nun 17/7
    don't get a job or mortgage
    at least don't fall into all the trappings of conventional lay life
    don't get married
    do drugs
    go traveling
    adopt third-world babies
    or kidnap them
    compost your dung
  • CristinaCristina
    edited August 2010
    The way I see it, there's no hard and fast rules to attaining enlightenment. There's simply more effective ways of going about it, and less effective ways. I see no reason why a lay person couldn't become enlightened, even if they had a job/mortgage/spouse/kids. It truly is not what we do, but how we do it. It is possible to live a "normal" life as a layperson and not have any attachments. Granted, enlightenment will prompt certain behaviors, I would think, that may differ from a "normal" life as a layperson. But far be it from me to say what those behaviors would be. I'm not enlightened!

    As such I could be totally wrong, but this is my understanding of it.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Chrysalid wrote: »
    ... to have any real chance of attaining Nirvana?
    ........................

    Yes - it is absolutely essential to go forth.

    No - it is absolutely essential to remain lay.

    Both and neither.
  • GeckoGecko
    edited August 2010
    I feel the need to mention one of the most awesome characters in Zen Buddhism here - Layman Pang! :D

    There are also some books/documents out there detailing how 'lay practitioners' can shape their actions and lives to better suit the needs of following the path (depending on the traditions).
  • PaulclemPaulclem
    edited August 2010
    Chrysalid wrote: »
    ... to have any real chance of attaining Nirvana?

    Probably another naive question, but meh. It seems all the wise people whose writings I am reading are, or have been monastics, and I can see how not having the distractions of a job, mortgage, bills etc would be beneficial to the practice of the dharma.
    Are there any lay people who have acheived awakening?


    I'm a lay practitioner, and my friends and I have often discussed this topic. The longer we have been involved in Buddhism, the clearer it's become that it is a long game.

    What can we hope for? An auspicious rebirth to continue practising the Dharma? Probably, but remember that it is right, proper and meritorious for a person to fulfil their responsibilities to family etc. I became a Buddhist after I was a family man, and so I happily fulfil my duties. Families are good at testing you out anyway - patience etc. (I do have a dog that does that for me too!).

    My friend is in a different situation. He is unmarried, but has the responsibility of looking after his Father. He is very committed to this, as well as his Buddhism.

    You just have to make the spiritual best that you can, whatever your circumstances, but how you conduct your life becomes your Buddhism.
  • GeckoGecko
    edited August 2010
    I agree.

    In addition, Simon's annoyingly paradoxical answer is very succinct - it's all about where and when you are now, and moving forward from there. Some people can't become involved in the institutional monastic orders, others might be expected to robe-up as a family commitment. Either way, they're just the circumstances of a conditioned existence; it would be unfortunate to let either 'paths' hinder the practice of Buddhism for yourself.
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Are there any lay people who have acheived awakening?


    Sayagyi U Ba Khin comes to mind. He was a civil servant in the Burmese govt before the current military junta.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/khin/wheel231.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_Khin
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited August 2010
    Chrysalid wrote: »
    Are there any lay people who have acheived awakening?

    Many.
    A few examples of lay teachers who I feel were/are buddhas are:
    Dudjom Rinpoche
    Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
    Kunzang Dechen Lingpa
    Sakya Trizin
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited August 2010
    One thing that is said about the dharma is that it is 'good in the beginning' 'good in the middle' 'and good at the end'...

    So whatever point you are practicing at wherever you can open out to the dharma it is a joyous journey. Imagine all the buddhist practioners. Children teenagers adults middle aged and old age. Rich and poor. Monks, nuns, lay people, arhats, occultists, prateyakas (look it up), hearers, Therevadins, Zenners, Tibetans, and all people connected to the dharma.. All people connected to compassion and wisdom including muslims and christians and jews and native american healers. Secular humanists and all sects.

    All on a journey to be happy.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Isn't this kind of analogous to asking if you have to be a Christian monk or a nun to be saved or go to heaven? It's not written anywhere that I'm aware of, and I've surely never heard anyone even intimate it in regard to Buddhism. If that were the case, what would be the point of being a lay person at all? You could just smoke, drink and carouse all you wanted, knowing you had no chance at enlightenment.

    Mtns
  • GeckoGecko
    edited August 2010
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    prateyakas (look it up)
    Ooo - spirtual empiricism!
  • dorjedorje
    edited August 2010
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    Many.
    A few examples of lay teachers who I feel were/are buddhas are:
    Dudjom Rinpoche
    Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
    Kunzang Dechen Lingpa
    Sakya Trizin

    not forgetting Virupa, Saraha, Kukuripa, Naropa, Tilopa, etc.
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Mountains wrote: »
    Isn't this kind of analogous to asking if you have to be a Christian monk or a nun to be saved or go to heaven? It's not written anywhere that I'm aware of, and I've surely never heard anyone even intimate it in regard to Buddhism.
    But the Buddha began his "religion" as a monastic one, the lay people were those who, for whatever reason, couldn't give up their mundane lives to join the Buddha's monastery. Christianity began as a faith of the lay person, monasticism came much later. So I don't think it is really analogous. Plus the fact that the goal of Christianity is to believe in God and go to heaven, (something which is analogous to believing in Amitabha with the hope of being reborn in the Pure Land I suppose) but isn't analogous to re-training the mind to eliminate suffering.
  • GeckoGecko
    edited August 2010
    Chrysalid wrote: »
    But the Buddha began his "religion" as a monastic one, the lay people were those who, for whatever reason, couldn't give up their mundane lives to join the Buddha's monastery.
    Didn't the monastic institution arrive only after Buddha's paranirvana? I got the impression from what I've heard that while people following Buddha practiced simplicity, etc, the more 'serious' monastic regulations and practices arrived quite a while later. :confused:
  • atappaatappa
    edited August 2010
    Pietro Pumokin wrote: »
    monks / nuns have smaller if not zero chance of attaining nirvana
    but to do it right you've got to be a lay monastic that is live like a monk as well as you can, emanate nun 17/7
    don't get a job or mortgage
    at least don't fall into all the trappings of conventional lay life
    don't get married
    do drugs
    go traveling
    adopt third-world babies
    or kidnap them
    compost your dung
    wait are you saying to do drugs?;)
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited August 2010
    I don't care much about enlightment lately...
    It'll come or not.
    I'm just doing my best at following the path.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Chrysalid wrote: »
    ... to have any real chance of attaining Nirvana?

    Probably another naive question, but meh. It seems all the wise people whose writings I am reading are, or have been monastics, and I can see how not having the distractions of a job, mortgage, bills etc would be beneficial to the practice of the dharma.
    Are there any lay people who have acheived awakening?

    No friend there are many great practitoners who where lay that attained enlightenment :)
  • Mr_SerenityMr_Serenity Veteran
    edited August 2010
    I have heard that you cannot obtain enlightenment by sitting on a pillow. It is actually those that are tested with many types of obstacles and difficulties that become closer to reach enlightenment. So regular people often have more chances than monks or nuns.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Mr Serenity wrote: »
    I have heard that you cannot obtain enlightenment by sitting on a pillow. It is actually those that are tested with many types of obstacles and difficulties that become closer to reach enlightenment. So regular people often have more chances than monks or nuns.
    From my own (admittedly brief) experience of the monastic life and from my many monastic friends, it is quite apparent that they are daily 'tested' and that their vocation can ensure that they have more chance of dealing with those "many types of obstacles and difficulties" in a mindful way than those of us who can distract ourselves with family, mortgage, job, etc.
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