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Are these valid reasons to rule out a teacher?
As of today I have never sought out a formal teacher, but I have perused the websites of a few schools within a reasonable driving distance. From some websites I get the impression the teacher/school are very serious about their practice and others seem more like a social club where 'Buddhism lite' is practiced.
I figure I should really just go to a few places and experience things more directly.
However, there are certain... 'attributes' of people that I wonder about. I wonder if it is a good indication or not of how valuable they could be as a teacher.
One thing I wonder about is the teacher who seems to have great words when speaking of mindfulness, but is grossly over weight. Or a teacher who smokes cigarettes.
Now, I am not trying to be judgmental and in the interest of full disclosure, I smoke cigarettes and have another 8 or 9 pounds to lose before I will consider my weight healthy.
The thing is, I have not set myself up as a teacher. I am a 'noob' student. Already my addiction to alcohol is gone and it did not require will power on my part, it was insight from practice that removed the desire to abuse alcohol. Likewise my weight has come down as I became more mindful of my eating, specifically why I was eating when I wasn't really hungry and mindfulness that much of what I was eating wasn't really food, just calories.
So, if I encounter a teacher who sounds good, but is grossly over weight (assuming no underlying medical condition) wouldn't that indicate this person isn't practicing what they are teaching and therefore is unlikely to be of any more benefit than a book as a teacher?
Or if this teacher has an addiction to cigarettes or anything else, have they really gotten far enough on the path to have much to teach about cravings that I couldn't get from a book?
I am asking here only about qualifications as a formal teacher, not the other lay people at the school.
What do you think?
I figure I should really just go to a few places and experience things more directly.
However, there are certain... 'attributes' of people that I wonder about. I wonder if it is a good indication or not of how valuable they could be as a teacher.
One thing I wonder about is the teacher who seems to have great words when speaking of mindfulness, but is grossly over weight. Or a teacher who smokes cigarettes.
Now, I am not trying to be judgmental and in the interest of full disclosure, I smoke cigarettes and have another 8 or 9 pounds to lose before I will consider my weight healthy.
The thing is, I have not set myself up as a teacher. I am a 'noob' student. Already my addiction to alcohol is gone and it did not require will power on my part, it was insight from practice that removed the desire to abuse alcohol. Likewise my weight has come down as I became more mindful of my eating, specifically why I was eating when I wasn't really hungry and mindfulness that much of what I was eating wasn't really food, just calories.
So, if I encounter a teacher who sounds good, but is grossly over weight (assuming no underlying medical condition) wouldn't that indicate this person isn't practicing what they are teaching and therefore is unlikely to be of any more benefit than a book as a teacher?
Or if this teacher has an addiction to cigarettes or anything else, have they really gotten far enough on the path to have much to teach about cravings that I couldn't get from a book?
I am asking here only about qualifications as a formal teacher, not the other lay people at the school.
What do you think?
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Comments
What we think doesn't matter.
It's what YOU think, that matters.
Listen to their words.
How wisely do they resonate?
Is there hypocrisy in their message?
in order to better absorb the message they convey, you must feel they are being honest, sincere, diligent and penetrating.
Do you feel this?
Are you able to see beyond the physical?
Or is that a reasonable and legitimate obstacle?
Yea, you need to find a place where you can continue your insight practice. Someplace and teacher that you can actually practice while your there listening to them. That sometimes takes quieting your own mind and being open to learning also. Sounds like your on the right path, hope you find a place soon....
Thanks for the replies so far, folks.
I agree that a teacher may know the path, where it leads and how to help others overcome some obstacles, but so do teachers who write books and allow audio of their talks to be published. In other words I don't know that a personal, 2 way relationship is necessary for a student for just these purposes (I am not saying there is no benefit to it).
I would think that a practitioner who has followed the path by actual practice would have a fair amount of development to show for it after many years.
If I learned that a particular teacher was beating his wife I wouldn't be interested in that teacher because it clearly reveals their practice hasn't taken them to the point where their actions are even free of gross violations of the 5 precepts. Same if I learned the teacher was an accomplished shop lifter or home burglar.
I think what I am trying to communicate is that I am not interested in a formal relationship with a teacher if they haven't yet developed to the point where their life shows the effect of their practice to at least a reasonable degree.
Being abusive or being a thief are examples of what I would consider an indication they haven't made any real progress on the path.
My question then is does it seem 'fair' to consider obesity, with no underlying medical problem to be indicative of a lack or real progress on the path? Does an addiction to cigarettes or other substances indicate that?
I am leaning toward 'yes, it does likely indicate the teacher hasn't progressed far enough to be worthy of being a formal teacher yet'.
I am wondering what others thoughts are though.
Just for clarity, I am not suggesting an obese, chain smoking person is a "bad" person. I am just thinking that a person who has practiced for years would likely have found these kinds of things addressed already. If they haven't, is their practice really worthy of following?
Am I setting myself up for disappointment by having too high of expectations?
Newbies often judge teachers based on their public behavior and I can't blame them for it. But I think you would be better off testing them by gently criticizing them during a conversation and noting their reaction.If they get angry or defensive, they are probably not a good teacher.
Dennis60:
The fat "Buddha" Statues are a Chinese Buddhist monk named Hotai who lived around 900 CE. His belly has come to be a symbol for prosperity and with this has come a Chinese practice of believing his statue brings prosperity and happiness (pretty un-Buddhistic ideas!)
He is NOT Shakamuni Buddha. Most statues of Shakyamuni would show him quite thin.
Amida statues are very common and very often you will find them used with people thinking it is Shakyamuni.
Amida is usually shown with average weight, and his robe covering both shoulders. His hands are in a mudra symbolising infinity....one palm over the other, thumbs touching, and index fingers bent touching the thumbs. (forming the sideways 8 infinity symbol)
There is a large meditating Amida in Kamakura Japan called Dai Butsu which is very famous, and again many people mistake it for Shakyamuni.
Second off
Username_5
These people are not saints, nor perfectly enlightened Buddhas. They are human with flaws, and they WILL make mistakes. I think superficial aspects like weight (which doesn't necessarily indicate gluttony) or a bad habit like smoking should be discarded.
How they teach, how they practice, how you are able to relate to them...that counts.
Not even the Buddha was perfect - there is a story where he was meditating once day, and the large group of monks around were chatting, noisy and otherwise being quite distracting. Eventually Buddha get fed up with the noise, and before moving to a quieter spot, rebuked the monks for being so noisy and agitated - 'you'll never reach Enlightenment that way'.
Apparently, a few of the monks committed suicide in utter shame - but that's probably an exaggeration to hammer the story home - but the story illustrates that no-one is perfect, even a so-called 'perfect' being.
I still mull over the story, as I still have issues of finding flaws in teachers and more-developed practitioners, but as one of my good dharma-buddies said; teachers aren't there to dump a load of Buddhist theory in your lap, and drag you to the top of the mountain. They, even the sublime Buddha, are merely guideposts showing you the way - you can learn from them, and do so carefully and with a questioning mind - but eventually, your own path will turn around a corner, and you will need another signpost.
I agree with you fully.
I suspect I am not communicating my thoughts as clearly as I hoped.
I had typed out a few paragraphs and then deleted them as I realized the words weren't going to help convey what I am actually thinking. I am going to try a different approach.
Mindfulness is the goal of a Buddhist practitioner. We go to the mat to work out our mindfulness muscle and then we get off the mat attempting to bring that mindfulness into our daily lives. Mindfulness of whatever is going on at the moment. Of course carrying that mindfulness into daily life is no easy task. It takes lots and lots of practice.
However, with practice we do become more mindful during the day. We recognize when we are not at all mindful faster and correct it faster. More and more of the moments we experience throughout the day are mindful moments.
As we continue to practice and our mindfulness grows, that mindfulness shows us the true nature of more and more moments. All moments may be 'unsatisfactory' in the end, but some moments lead to more direct suffering than others. An addiction, regardless of what it is that we are addicted to is a pretty obvious cause of suffering. It's a craving that either gets satisfied or it causes more craving. It becomes distracting, destroying mindfulness.
Of course, there is a way to experience the craving of an addiction without destroying mindfulness and that is to be mindful of the craving. Notice the craving arise, bring bare awareness to the craving while it lasts, see it fade away. I would think that at some point in being mindful of the craving the person would see the craving for what it is. The suffering it is causing them would be known in that wordless way that is oh so powerful. If not in their 'normal' life, then certainly the craving must arise from time to time during formal meditation when they are in a much deeper state of concentration and see the addiction as the source of suffering it is very profoundly. By profoundly I mean it's transformational. Upon seeing the thing as a source of profound suffering one's desire to participate in that suffering ends.
Wow, lots of words I typed. Am I being clear in what I am saying about how with practice mindfulness increases and gets brought to bear on more and more of our thoughts, emotions and actions? As a result we change?
I am hoping so
Ok, so assuming I was clear enough about making progress on the path above, how does one fairly and realistically evaluate a teacher's progress to determine if it is enough that they really have something experience based to teach from?
Above it was suggested I gently criticize the teacher to see if they become angry or irritated or if they remain polite and gentle. Wouldn't that really be a mindfulness test? My criticism may well result in anger arising in them, but if they are mindful they will see the anger arise and replace it with loving kindness before they act. If they are not mindful then they may 'slip up' and express that anger and then regret it.
I guess my standard in terms of a teacher is that it be a person who is more mindful, more consistently than I am. That would indicate they are further along on the path than I am.
What I am having trouble wrapping my brain around is how a person more mindful than I am would be able to not end obvious addictions/sources of suffering that need to be fed many times per day. Each time the addiction arises it's another opportunity for mindfulness to see it for what it is and fade away the desire to participate in that suffering. Perhaps the addiction won't end in a day, or a year, or 5 years, but at some point wouldn't it have to? Some point waaaaay before full enlightenment?
Thank you for clarifying; this misconception is a pet peeve of mine as well! It doesn't help that many businesses specializing in Feng Shui promote the "Laughing Buddha" as particularly auspicious items for the home. They don't bother to explain who or what it is, or what significance it has to religious practitioners. But I digress...
The example of being "grossly overweight" (according to whom?) as an example of being lax in mindfulness is especially misguided. As others have stated, weight is not an indicator of health or activity level. The obsession with weight in Western culture is just another way of focusing on outward appearances, instead of things that really matter. How does weight in any way reflect ones understanding of dharma teachings?
For the sake of conversation, let's say that somebody was "grossly overweight" due to their uncontrollable craving for junk food (or whatever, it's just an example). They then became meditation masters and gave up all addictions, include excessive consumption of unhealthy foods. Most likely they would not lose much weight, unless they embarked on a rigorous exercise routine - and why would they do that? If they were able to develop their minds to the level that they could skillfully teach and share the dharma with others, what point would there be in trying to reach a weight that society considered acceptable? How would that benefit the dharma?
I understand that this was not necessarily the point of your original question, but I did want to address it.
Precisely. The agribusiness conglomerates have succeeded in making empty calories so cheap that's all people consume, and obesity is the result. Human bodies come in all sorts of shapes and sizes (genetics), but obesity is not a normal human condition.
Mtns
- I value my teacher for the "modelling" they do of what lies down the path if I practice ... for the patience, modesty, gentleness and attentiveness to the dharma. A teacher who fills this function is a valued teacher.
- I also value my teacher for the times (3 times in over 10 years) that I have wanted some guidance on how I was doing my practice, or a problem I had run up against. A teacher who meets this need is a valued teacher.
- My teacher has shown me, a handful of times, that he is not a fully-enlightened Buddha, that he too has his Foibles. It gave me pause the first few times, but then I realized
... that he helps me be a better Buddhist.
... that I couldn't make use of a Buddha for a teacher ... not yet.
... that my teacher's flaws give me the ultimate lessons in learning personal humility, non-judgmentalism, and compassion, and
... All I need is someone who helps me be a better Buddhist.
In the end, it all comes down to whether or not you feel this person is a good teacher for you.
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Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche who is considered a pillar in bringing Buddhism to the west is believe to have died of alcohol related issues and smoked constantly, yet he had some very interesting writings and made great contributions to Buddhism.
We are all humans with defects, habits, attachments and perceptions. Ultimately it is up to you to listen to a teacher and to decide for yourself what practices are beneficial for you, regardless of the teacher's personal issues.
In my eyes I feel you have erected an idea of THE OBSERVER. This is very common. VERY common. Been there done that. THE OBSERVER is just conditioned thinking or in other words of the same fabric as the ego mandala.
Mindfulness is more than bare awareness. My teacher does not like the term mindfulness and instead uses the word 'awareness' for this very reason.
This is a very difficult issue and I don't want you to go into a moral vacuum where you it is meaningless if you are hurting your health. Its a very tricky teaching.
If you are interested in what I am saying (and its ok if you are not
But the thing is that 'self-improvement' sometimes has too heavy of a touch.
My teacher had a story of a wife and husband. The husband was a serious buddhist (at least he felt serious), and one day my teacher (I think this is an actual couple, maybe not) was having tea with the couple. The wife dropped the tea cup and it shattered. "Mindfulness" the husband scowleded. My teacher was kind of like "oh jeezzzzz" Perhaps thinking the husband had the wrong idea of what mindfulness meant.
To my teacher what she thought was: "Mindfulness of cup dropping and breaking"
In meditation we cannot stop ourselves from 'dropping the cup' and drifting off. But we can have a light gentle honest touch. And always come right back.
With addictions part of the process is usually condemning yourself to the point of self flagellation. Then you reward yourself with your drug when you have taken a big enough beating.
Mindfulness is just watching that whole cycle and seeing it clearly. When the penny drops your heart will hurt too much to continue that cycle of abuse. The clarity of mindfulness allows you to develope that sensitive response. When obstacles come you just sit with them and continue to open your awareness (mindfulness too). And the sensitive response is part of mindfulness too.
This sounds good to me and sounds like the right touch. It does sound slightly like a grasping tendency to make the suffering go away rather than just be mindful of it. Its just like when you try to have a different state of mind in meditation. It doesn't work. Things happen naturally when you let go. The penny will drop! Its a very radical move to just sit with the suffering and have a light touch. Its not wrong to want it to go away. The grasping is the problem.
Then there is attachment to a bright healthy future. The day after 'the moment of clarity' usually you have strong attachment to that time of clarity and motivation... But it too is an impermanent experience [or I should say the aliveness of the clarity and motivation goes away and you lose confidence in it to come back again]. But at the same time you are afraid and you feel trapped into something rigid. Like your freedom to smoke and eat is taken away. Your identity is crumbling and you are afraid that it could crumble even more. A whole barrel of attachments.
By letting go of both of these attachments the 'middle way is found'. An alive intelligent response. A open ended spacious response in that it is evolving and is not set on conditioned thinking or ideals. With basis on letting go and sitting with things and not believing the conditioned thinking that tells you you have to do something.