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Consciousness and the Will

AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
edited August 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Two questions.

1. Do we have free will?

2. If we have free will how do we use it in a world were it seems like free will is not practiced and used?

BTW I do believe that we have free will. I'm not sure how to use it though. I think what a lot of people call free will is not free will at all but subconscious beliefs and programing that runs.

Comments

  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »

    1. Do we have free-will? .
    What is it that has free will? This requires an agent/self. If such an agent truly had absolute free-will it would remain in a state of paralysis. We assume an agent and find it has a kind of free-will, always promised yet continually not... quite ...realized. How can we have free-will when we cannot even direct our thoughts and feelings moment to moment? The agent of this free-will seems pretty powerless, absolutely powerless in fact.
    When we really look, we see the absence of a free-will agent and in so doing there is a liberation. It is as if the powerlessness of the little captain to control the weather gives way to being the weather. Then free-will and not free-will both give way.
  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    edited August 2010
    :eek2:
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited August 2010
    mugzy wrote: »
    :eek2:
    read again slowly mugzy:)
  • AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
    edited August 2010
    If that is the case then nobody should be accountable for there actions. They can just say: "That is just the way it is, don't blame me."
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »
    If that is the case then nobody should be accountable for there actions. They can just say: "That is just the way it is, don't blame me."
    "me" is accountable, always.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »
    Three questions.

    1. Do we have free will?

    2. If we have free will how do we use it in a world were it seems like free will is not practiced and used?

    BTW I do believe that we have free will. I'm not sure how to use it though. I think what a lot of people call free will is not free will at all but subconscious beliefs and programing that runs.

    That is only 2 questions but you said you had 3. :) I propose a third! What happens when the program that is running is deleted?
  • GeckoGecko
    edited August 2010
    What does the deleting?! :D
  • AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
    edited August 2010
    I forgot to change that to a two. You might be much more conscious and probably wonder who was running your life. Or you can take power over them in your life and become much more conscious through practice and be able to override those programs and regain your will back. Will is only a tool will itself is not free will. That is my belief.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2010
    (I arrive. I edit. Chaos ensues.....) :D
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »
    BTW I do believe that we have free will. I'm not sure how to use it though. I think what a lot of people call free will is not free will at all but subconscious beliefs and programing that runs.
    What exactly is free will? I've never seen an adequate definition of it, and don't believe one is possible.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited August 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    What exactly is free will? I've never seen an adequate definition of it, and don't believe one is possible.
    That is a good question. I assume it means unconditioned will, but maybe it takes in the existing conditioning of myself and my partialities, and my action coming from that?
  • AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
    edited August 2010
    I admit it is not easy to use free will, and must be practiced. I thought there would be some real answers in the Buddhist religion to this question. Maybe not.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2010
    There may well be answers, but it may take you some time to find one - or some - that will adequately answer your query.

    This may interest you:
    "For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed that karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. Furthermore, present actions need not be determined by past actions. In other words, there is free will, although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. The nature of this freedom is symbolized in an image used by the early Buddhists: flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted in almost any direction."

    From here.
  • AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
    edited August 2010
    The quote that you have there federica is something that I already knew, have experienced, and it's even self evident if one understands the nature of ourselves. But it helps me see it from a little bit of a different angle.
    I just have not found the axis point that which we can use free will in everyday life. I do believe that I get glimpses of it thou in my life. They are little times were I feel life I can do anything. My will and imagination are fully at my command sometimes in those moments. Other than that I think our free will is very suppressed in everyday life. No doubt we have free will but using it is something different. I guess the main thing is that you keep your will in free will.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2010
    I think sometimes we fall into the danger of over-thinking things.....

    As far as I am personally concerned, I really don't think about Will, free or otherwise.
    I just try my best to live in a way that does no harm to others, and cultivates a calm and abiding mind.
  • AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
    edited August 2010
    That good federica. My purpose in this life is to figure this out so. When I figure it out I will let you all know. I do know this being rooted in the body in the NOW as Eckhart Tolle describes it is probably one of the first steps.
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »
    .......
    1. Do we have free will?
    .......

    It would seem that the question of "free will" does not arise in Buddhist philosophy because the whole of existence is relative, conditioned and interdependent; and the so called "free will" is no exception.
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »
    I just have not found the axis point that which we can use free will in everyday life. I do believe that I get glimpses of it thou in my life. They are little times were I feel life I can do anything. My will and imagination are fully at my command sometimes in those moments. Other than that I think our free will is very suppressed in everyday life. No doubt we have free will but using it is something different. I guess the main thing is that you keep your will in free will.
    I like the quote that federica found, it sums up how I see things.

    As to the "axis point", I think the only time you really become aware of the power of a free will is in extreme situations when you are presented with a choice and, in opposition to logic, instinct, even common sense we choose to do the right thing.
    Sometimes it is so easy to go with the flow, or assent to another's will, or benefit from wrongdoings if you can get away with it. It's in these situations that our freedom to say no, to choose to do what is virtuous becomes apparent.
  • AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
    edited August 2010
    If the Buddhist don't believe in free will I don't want any part of that.
    According to federica from the quote above there does seems to be some kind of free will. Talking about "present actions".
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »
    If the Buddhist don't believe in free will I don't want any part of that.
    According to federica from the quote above there does seems to be some kind of free will. Talking about "present actions".

    Free-will and not free-will both give way in practice. If the only option you have is free-will or determinism your in quite a pickle.<!-- / message -->
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    edited August 2010
    AstralProjectee wrote: »
    Eckhart Tolle

    AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!:rarr:
  • AstralProjecteeAstralProjectee
    edited August 2010
    SherabDorje wrote: »
    AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!:rarr:
    Would you mind to elaborate. That doesn't tell me much of anything.
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited August 2010
    In Buddha Dharma, it is taught that we have both mutable ( unfixed ) karma and immutable ( fixed , such as lifef span ) karma but ultimately even immutable could be changed in sincere practice
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Gecko wrote: »
    What does the deleting?! :D

    Breathing! :D

    If the Buddhist don't believe in free will I don't want any part of that.
    According to federica from the quote above there does seems to be some kind of free will. Talking about "present actions".
    I think it would be most accurate to say that Buddhism teaches neither free will, nor not free will.

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#In_Buddhist_philosophy
    Buddhists believe in neither absolute free will, nor determinism. It preaches a middle doctrine, named pratitya-samutpada in Sanskrit, which is often translated as "inter-dependent arising". It is part of the theory of karma in Buddhism
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited August 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    I think it would be most accurate to say that Buddhism teaches neither free will, nor not free will.

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#In_Buddhist_philosophy
    Buddhists believe in neither absolute free will, nor determinism. It preaches a middle doctrine, named pratitya-samutpada in Sanskrit, which is often translated as "inter-dependent arising". It is part of the theory of karma in Buddhism
    I think this sums it up nicely. :)
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Hi Astral Projectee,

    Some thoughts:

    What we can do is limited in any given situation, we are not free to do entirely as we wish.

    For example, if we are in the middle of the road and a truck is coming towards us, we can...(depending on how far away it is and how fast it is travelling)...either remain there and be killed or walk/run/jump/skip/hop/crawl out the way. We cannot, however, choose to grow wings and fly out the way (unless maybe we have highly developed psychic powers). We are limited to what is physically possible.

    We can choose to practice the Buddha's Teachings, or we can choose not to, either way we have this choice because we live in a time where the Buddha's Teachings are available to us. How could we choose an option that we weren't even aware of?

    Which brings me to another point...awareness/mindfulness = more possible choices.

    So our choices are limited by both physical and mental factors.

    Who or what does the choosing? Maybe there is no chooser? I don't know...seems kind of irrelevant when it comes to the actual practice. In fact, the question itself could easily become an obstacle to practice.

    I know that you have said that your purpose in life is to "figure it out"...but has "figuring things out" ever led to peace? Lets say that you do "figure it out"...chances are this will lead to more questions, then these will lead to more questions and on and on it goes, never reaching any satisfactory conclusion. You can choose to bombard yourself with probably unanswerable questions, or you can choose to be at peace with things exactly as they are, even with unanswered questions.

    I am a person who tends to over-think things (not as much as I used to though, thanks to meditation) and in my experience only letting go leads to peace, never excessive thinking. Maybe you could try to let go of the question just for half an hour in meditation and see what happens...then hopefully you will see what Buddhism has to offer from first hand experience.

    With Metta,

    Guy
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