Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Sure, I was agreeing and then saying something else.
So, people who think the swastika can't/shouldn't be used in the West... wouldn't it be a double standard? Are you saying that only White people can't use swastikas?
i guess every person should be accountable for their own actions, what ever their symbol.
Shame the nazi's were so twisted.
If you took out the race supremacy, and the murdering of *supposed inferior races out of the whole 3rd Reich, then the 3rd Reich isn't that different to most religions aims.
The whole "Heaven on Earth" thing, land of milk and honey, nirvana, paradise, the golden age.....
Sound familiar. If the Nazi's hadn't been so prejudice and hadn't done such terrible things because of their arrogant ignorant beliefs, they may have actually sorted some of the worlds problems out.
When they were at their height of their power, their organization skills were certainly a powerful force to be reckoned with. Perhaps their unification may have been a positive power in the fight against poverty etc. (not that i support nazi-ism in any form, but there must have been some logic behind the whole scheme).
No offense meant. Please read properly.
If only the human race could put aside their differences in race and creed, in order to unite with aim of bringing peace and prosperity to the world. With the technology that we have, with all the wealth that we have, we as a Global Race have no excuse to allow any one suffer from poverty. Unity and organization must be the way forward.
Well, i imagine they can be national supremacists as much as people from any other nation. I mean, Indian nazism is as valid as any other non Germanic Aryan Race Supremacy. (not that I condone any form of race supremacy. I see all race supremacy as ignorant).
From what I know, the ww2 Nazi's were national socialists who believed in the superiority of the German Aryan race.
Actually, I would have thought that race supremacy would come quiet natural to some Indians who perhaps prescribe to the Hindu Caste System based on birth. Is this not similar to Race Supremacy.
When I was in India, I tried to visit temples, but some of the locals did not approve based on my race and were very hostile.
Yes, you're quite right about the racial supremacy aspect, I hadn't thought of that.
However, I always assumed that the swastika was used (and is used by fascist groups) as a symbol of Aryanism and not racial supremacy in general. This is why I didn't think it made sense for non-Aryans to be using the swastika as a racial supremacy symbol.
I guess this is no different to any other socialist race supremacist.
Not that I have anything against socialism.
Socialism is not congruent with racial supremacy. The Nazi party called themselves National Socialists as a populist move, as even their policies were much more fascistic than socialist/communist.
So, people who think the swastika can't/shouldn't be used in the West... wouldn't it be a double standard? Are you saying that only White people can't use swastikas?
I'm not one of the people who think it shouldn't be used, but I would think that it is more acceptable for Asian cultures to use the swastika... at least until the symbol has been cleared of its negative reputation (which may never happen). It is an unfortunate double standard.
But there are many double-standards that are so due to power inequalities between social groups - just like why a white person can't say "the n word" but black people can. There is a power differential. There are social movements that try to "reclaim" these words (e.g. the "n word," and a whole bunch of words in the LGBT community) as to disempower those who mis-use them, but it is a long process. I think something as infamous as the swastika would take even longer.
Thanks for the info. I only have a very basic understanding of Nazi-ism.
Thanks for expanding on the definition.
Although Hitler and Nazi-ism is something of a taboo subject, I do feel understanding such topics are very important,
as without understanding, I fear we risk becoming as ignorant and as prejudice as the people whom we show dislike for.
With self education, we can then make an educated choice and then explain why we dislike something.
This i believe is better than disliking someone or something simply because other people tell us to.
As for the swastica, being liberal minded, I personally do not have any problems with people using it in any form.
However, I have to admit, I would be cautious around any one who had swastica apparel on them or a swastica tattoo. (apart from the monk in the film above perhaps).
I guess I would require convincing if someone showed up with such symbols on themselves.
This, I do not feel is too narrow minded. It is due to past experience with people from local neo nazi groups, who in my opinion, are highly manipulative, dishonest and very un-trustworthy.
I have known some people to have conned their way in to groups only to be eventually discovered for the prejudice race haters they truly are.
That's the big problem with people of this nature. Some will use any means possible to cause problems or undermine others.
In some ways, they are the opposite of a Buddhist monk. In that their methods or precepts are the opposite in nature. Right speech, right livelyhood etc.
It's very clear that the symbol has been tainted, whether that is ever going to be reversed or not, or more appropriately, if it even warrants the effort to reverse, is something I cannot answer, its completely subjective I feel.
Symbols cannot be tainted, only minds can. There is nothing to reverse, repair or purify, only delusional automatic offense-triggers to desensitize.
Most politicians and marketing executives are liars. This has nothing to do with whether they are perceived as liars. They are liars because lying is rewarded in their line of work. Those who refuse to compromise their integrity are gradually weeded out of the professions.
any takes on the "one finger up gesture?"
or perhaps the "angry man shaking a clenched fist"
or the sound of a man blewing a "rasberry"...
Perhaps we can embace these symbols with our undistorted perception as by nature empty. Although, some symbols may warn us against possible threats.
In this life, while dangers still exist. One must try and be as undistorted and as compassionate as possible, while still staying aware that dangers may still arise.
Living in society can sometimes be unpredictable, as life (samsara) by nature throws all sorts of things at us, being aware and knowledgable helps us to act with wisdom, as although we may wish to love all equaly, others may not, and some are so twisted that they may intentionally wish to harm even a selfless monk.(easy prey).
i was told that the "buddhist" swastika is going the opposite direction from the "nazi" swastika. perhaps i am wrong though. personally, i don't really care. i'd rather not advertise something that brings to mind a lot of hurt and pain for others.
The direction of the arms has gone both ways ever since the symbol has been used. In fact, the "swastika" is one of the oldest geometric symbols found in human art, next to the circle and the rectangle. Its use goes as far back as humans have been creating art. I don't believe the direction has had a lot of meaning over the centuries, other than when the Nazis grabbed it.
Any takes on changing the use for universal road signs?
I propose that we start using the universal sign for stop as the sign for go faster,
or for turn left. Doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, its all distortion. We can over come their indoctrination with our alternate perception.....hmmm
...
think that this may be the problem. Good way to have a crash I think.
We must be aware not only of how we see things, but how the rest of the world sees things, especially if the other people are uneducated or ignorant.
...
As although we may be more open minded than most people in our actions, we must be conscious that we do not exist dependently.
....
And until we are able to change the whole universe (or extinguish it), we will be subjected to other peoples interactions based on their perceptions or in many cases, distorted perceptions.
.
So, go ahead and paint swasticas on your face and wear swasticas on your clothing, in hope that you can cleanse the symbol.
.
However, you will have only your self to blame if you end up in conflict with people who treat you bad based on their distorted perception. (which, in my experience may include being subjected to violence from both sides, as the anti-nazi's may think you are a nazi, and the nazi's may also choose to attack you).
OP: There are many other ways to express peace that do not cause harm to anyone. Let not our own indifference to a symbol cause us to lose sight of the pain of others.
Yes. Symbols really exist. These letters are symbols. They are on your screen. They exist. However, they are not what they represent. The word "word" is not the sound "word". A postcard of the beach is not the beach. What a symbol represents can change, but some symbols come to be cemented with certain representations. The swastika has been soaked in blood and violence and extreme racism. To make a cause of restoring it to pre-Nazi meaning is futile and provocative. To insist on using it despite those associations is deeply fishy, no matter what the professed reason.
To the people of the Hindu faith it never lost its original meaning.Are we saying that Hindus should no longer be able to use the swastika in their temples?
Some years ago when I was living in England there was a push to reclaim the British flag as it had been seized by the national front,a largely fascist movement that carried it on marches where they condemned everything from blacks to gays.Should the British people not fly their flag because many people associate it with fascism.
Just a thought.
With metta
No. Of course not. My post was Eurocentric. The Swastika, in the western cultural sphere, is fused to extreme racism. That could change one day, but not until we have gone beyond becoming Nazis again. Until then it stands as symbol for our dark undercurrents.
That symbol, displayed in the Hindu context, is usually seen differently. People are sensitive to context.
No. Of course not. My post was Eurocentric. The Swastika, in the western cultural sphere, is fused to extreme racism. That could change one day, but not until we have gone beyond becoming Nazis again. Until then it stands as symbol for our dark undercurrents.
That symbol, displayed in the Hindu context, is usually seen differently. People are sensitive to context.
That I can understand.I guess then we still need to think in terms of the Hindus.Would having the swastika on a temple in London be not so smart?
I can see in Germany it would be a huge problem.
I still have to wonder though,when I have been in India and see so many young Israelis with the swastika stickers all over their ghetto blasters and guitars.Now you would think they might be a bit sensitive.
Here in Canada there is a sensitivity to context. It is displayed on Hindu temples with no fuss. It is illegal to display in Germany I think. It would be interesting to see what German law says about its use in Hindu temples.
Those Jewish kids displaying the swastika would be the first to be outraged if they saw it displayed by someone else in another context. It may be a matter taking away its negative power by owning it, but that is just speculation.
There is for me something disturbing about the loss of the swastika's negative power in the West, because we can go down the road of extreme nationalism again. A "whatever" attitude about our recent history is dangerous
Those Jewish kids displaying the swastika would be the first to be outraged if they saw it displayed by someone else in another context. It may be a matter taking away its negative power by owning it, but that is just speculation.
Sounds familiar, though hadn't heard of Jewish display of the swastika before.
Let not our own indifference to a symbol cause us to lose sight of the pain of others.
Badly formulated. Carrying this to its logical extreme, it's possible to claim that to hinder the holocaust in Nazi Germany might have annoyed Hitler somewhat, that is, caused more suffering. Hence, the man of virtuous conduct would've done nothing.
Swastika hate in the west is utterly irrational and has reached a point where it's causing preventable pain for pointless reasons, like when the swastika was printed on a Pokemon card and offended everyone. The path of wisdom leads to the least suffering in the long run. It doesn't seek to superficially sweep delusions under the rug because the process of catharsis may be painful. It's best to pull out the arrow out of a fresh wound even if it hurts.
The Swastika, in the western cultural sphere, is fused to extreme racism.
I profoundly disagree. There's no reifiable absolute called "culture". Culture is no more than a loose, ever-changing collection of shared memes. It can, and sometimes should, be changed for the better.
Once again, I emphasize that the swastika symbol itself references the holocaust no more than we loosely allow it to, in our minds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy The suffering it causes is meaningless and totally unnecessary, so this delusion, its root cause, should be done away with.
Your attachment overwhelms reason and good judgment, convincing you that it "should be this way", and causing internal turmoil and frustration that it's not within your ability to change. You'll rage within, rage against any who disagree, and end up embittered and angry at life for being this way. Keep it if you want; I'm setting it down and leaving the choice to you; let go and be free, or keep the fire burning.
Your attachment overwhelms reason and good judgment, convincing you that it "should be this way", and causing internal turmoil and frustration that it's not within your ability to change. You'll rage within, rage against any who disagree, and end up embittered and angry at life for being this way. Keep it if you want; I'm setting it down and leaving the choice to you; let go and be free, or keep the fire burning.
Attachment to what, helping others overcome delusional conditioning? Rage against what, insanity and mean-spiritedness in Western culture? Let go of what, reason and all-embracing compassion? Sorry, I enjoy the "fire". It is what "I" am for the moment, and should be according to my vows. If you think I obsess, get embittered or worked up over the swastika in any way, then I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. Passion isn't the same as fixation or turmoil.
I've never attempted to dictate how things should be, I only said that my religious convictions make me endeavor to see delusion skillfully destroyed in whatever form I meet it. Yours may not, but it is my bodhisattva duty to systematically dismantle popular reactions to the swastika. On the other hand, it is you who claim that I have lost good judgment, implying that such a thing as objectified good judgment exists to begin with. The Buddhas stamp your "good judgment" into dust: http://www.keithdowman.net/books/bme.htm#VIRUPA
If I were truly compassionate, I'd go out of my way to find out what else is "offending" and parade the stuff in front of them. Not for my benefit, (why on earth would I want people to hate me for being a pro-Nazi attention seeker?) but for theirs. These people really need to wake up and stop letting the herd mentality do their thinking for them.
No one's to blame for your misunderstanding. You're not telepathic after all, but to mistake great compassion for craving or some other form of compulsive, unwholesome attachment is a serious failure of discerning awareness. In some contexts, it can be one of the biggest mistakes in your life. If my words still sound angry to you, do not forget that it's all your interpretation, taking place inside your head. You don't have to project your preconceptions onto speech patterns if you're willing to look beyond the superficial.
When traveling around India I was amazed at the number of Iraelis who had the swastika on their guitars,backpacks etc. I wondered if these were removed before they went home or if they would just try to explain to their families what it stood for in hinduism. Couldn't help but think a lot of people in Israel still would not accept it.As someone said to me once,"millions died under that symbol".
I felt strange enough and had glares in my neighborhood simply being a white guy with a close shaved head. Let alone sporting a swastika of any kind...
Jews are just the bunch to help reclaim the swastika in the same manner, and to the same end, as blacks in the USA are "repurposing" the "N" word. They , the wronged, must remove the juju (or not as they choose). Political correctness demands the offended group define the use of the offending symbol. I also think Israelis might begin to sport "Hitler" mustaches, a common decoration in the pre- WW2 era, to help save this benign fashion.
[I]NOTE: The poster of this thread [B]does not[/B] in any way support hatred, racism, bigotry, or anti-semitism.[/I]
I remember the first time a saw a swasticker shaped lawn in a Vietnamese monastery, at first I was shocked, but then I realised I had accidentally time travelled to the Eagles Nest in 1943, so it all worked out fine in the end.
I think the people for whom the swastika is a traditional sacred symbol have every right to use it, reclaim it, "rehabilitate" it. It's too bad it got trashed, but we can rise above that. But I think "White people" need to be careful where they use swastikas, being mindful of how some others regard it.
A note about swastikas: the reverse swastika (which, curiously, is on the Korean temple) refers to shamanism. The other one refers to the dharma. At least around Inner Asia it does. I can't say for sure about Korea, but Korea does have shamans.
Comments
So, people who think the swastika can't/shouldn't be used in the West... wouldn't it be a double standard? Are you saying that only White people can't use swastikas?
Shame the nazi's were so twisted.
If you took out the race supremacy, and the murdering of *supposed inferior races out of the whole 3rd Reich, then the 3rd Reich isn't that different to most religions aims.
The whole "Heaven on Earth" thing, land of milk and honey, nirvana, paradise, the golden age.....
Sound familiar. If the Nazi's hadn't been so prejudice and hadn't done such terrible things because of their arrogant ignorant beliefs, they may have actually sorted some of the worlds problems out.
When they were at their height of their power, their organization skills were certainly a powerful force to be reckoned with. Perhaps their unification may have been a positive power in the fight against poverty etc. (not that i support nazi-ism in any form, but there must have been some logic behind the whole scheme).
No offense meant. Please read properly.
If only the human race could put aside their differences in race and creed, in order to unite with aim of bringing peace and prosperity to the world. With the technology that we have, with all the wealth that we have, we as a Global Race have no excuse to allow any one suffer from poverty. Unity and organization must be the way forward.
oh....ps.
I wonder why Michael Jackson used to dress up as a nazi?
anyone?
Yes, you're quite right about the racial supremacy aspect, I hadn't thought of that.
However, I always assumed that the swastika was used (and is used by fascist groups) as a symbol of Aryanism and not racial supremacy in general. This is why I didn't think it made sense for non-Aryans to be using the swastika as a racial supremacy symbol.
Socialism is not congruent with racial supremacy. The Nazi party called themselves National Socialists as a populist move, as even their policies were much more fascistic than socialist/communist.
But that's just being picky
I'm not one of the people who think it shouldn't be used, but I would think that it is more acceptable for Asian cultures to use the swastika... at least until the symbol has been cleared of its negative reputation (which may never happen). It is an unfortunate double standard.
But there are many double-standards that are so due to power inequalities between social groups - just like why a white person can't say "the n word" but black people can. There is a power differential. There are social movements that try to "reclaim" these words (e.g. the "n word," and a whole bunch of words in the LGBT community) as to disempower those who mis-use them, but it is a long process. I think something as infamous as the swastika would take even longer.
Thanks for expanding on the definition.
Although Hitler and Nazi-ism is something of a taboo subject, I do feel understanding such topics are very important,
as without understanding, I fear we risk becoming as ignorant and as prejudice as the people whom we show dislike for.
With self education, we can then make an educated choice and then explain why we dislike something.
This i believe is better than disliking someone or something simply because other people tell us to.
As for the swastica, being liberal minded, I personally do not have any problems with people using it in any form.
However, I have to admit, I would be cautious around any one who had swastica apparel on them or a swastica tattoo. (apart from the monk in the film above perhaps).
I guess I would require convincing if someone showed up with such symbols on themselves.
This, I do not feel is too narrow minded. It is due to past experience with people from local neo nazi groups, who in my opinion, are highly manipulative, dishonest and very un-trustworthy.
I have known some people to have conned their way in to groups only to be eventually discovered for the prejudice race haters they truly are.
That's the big problem with people of this nature. Some will use any means possible to cause problems or undermine others.
In some ways, they are the opposite of a Buddhist monk. In that their methods or precepts are the opposite in nature. Right speech, right livelyhood etc.
Symbols cannot be tainted, only minds can. There is nothing to reverse, repair or purify, only delusional automatic offense-triggers to desensitize.
So is understanding how symbols work. The rest of your post doesn't really present an argument in the usual sense of the word.
Most politicians and marketing executives are liars. This has nothing to do with whether they are perceived as liars. They are liars because lying is rewarded in their line of work. Those who refuse to compromise their integrity are gradually weeded out of the professions.
Thanks for your insight, I found this to be especially interesting.
I suppose they don't really. They are only "symbols" because we say they are, but in reality they are nothing until we ascribe meaning to them.
EDIT: Just now i realized you may have been asking a rhetorical question. D'oh!
or perhaps the "angry man shaking a clenched fist"
or the sound of a man blewing a "rasberry"...
Perhaps we can embace these symbols with our undistorted perception as by nature empty. Although, some symbols may warn us against possible threats.
In this life, while dangers still exist. One must try and be as undistorted and as compassionate as possible, while still staying aware that dangers may still arise.
Living in society can sometimes be unpredictable, as life (samsara) by nature throws all sorts of things at us, being aware and knowledgable helps us to act with wisdom, as although we may wish to love all equaly, others may not, and some are so twisted that they may intentionally wish to harm even a selfless monk.(easy prey).
The direction of the arms has gone both ways ever since the symbol has been used. In fact, the "swastika" is one of the oldest geometric symbols found in human art, next to the circle and the rectangle. Its use goes as far back as humans have been creating art. I don't believe the direction has had a lot of meaning over the centuries, other than when the Nazis grabbed it.
I propose that we start using the universal sign for stop as the sign for go faster,
or for turn left. Doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, its all distortion. We can over come their indoctrination with our alternate perception.....hmmm
...
think that this may be the problem. Good way to have a crash I think.
We must be aware not only of how we see things, but how the rest of the world sees things, especially if the other people are uneducated or ignorant.
...
As although we may be more open minded than most people in our actions, we must be conscious that we do not exist dependently.
....
And until we are able to change the whole universe (or extinguish it), we will be subjected to other peoples interactions based on their perceptions or in many cases, distorted perceptions.
.
So, go ahead and paint swasticas on your face and wear swasticas on your clothing, in hope that you can cleanse the symbol.
.
However, you will have only your self to blame if you end up in conflict with people who treat you bad based on their distorted perception. (which, in my experience may include being subjected to violence from both sides, as the anti-nazi's may think you are a nazi, and the nazi's may also choose to attack you).
Questioning peoples perceptions on how they view the world around them.
All the best,
Todd
Some years ago when I was living in England there was a push to reclaim the British flag as it had been seized by the national front,a largely fascist movement that carried it on marches where they condemned everything from blacks to gays.Should the British people not fly their flag because many people associate it with fascism.
Just a thought.
With metta
That symbol, displayed in the Hindu context, is usually seen differently. People are sensitive to context.
I can see in Germany it would be a huge problem.
I still have to wonder though,when I have been in India and see so many young Israelis with the swastika stickers all over their ghetto blasters and guitars.Now you would think they might be a bit sensitive.
Those Jewish kids displaying the swastika would be the first to be outraged if they saw it displayed by someone else in another context. It may be a matter taking away its negative power by owning it, but that is just speculation.
There is for me something disturbing about the loss of the swastika's negative power in the West, because we can go down the road of extreme nationalism again. A "whatever" attitude about our recent history is dangerous
Badly formulated. Carrying this to its logical extreme, it's possible to claim that to hinder the holocaust in Nazi Germany might have annoyed Hitler somewhat, that is, caused more suffering. Hence, the man of virtuous conduct would've done nothing.
Swastika hate in the west is utterly irrational and has reached a point where it's causing preventable pain for pointless reasons, like when the swastika was printed on a Pokemon card and offended everyone. The path of wisdom leads to the least suffering in the long run. It doesn't seek to superficially sweep delusions under the rug because the process of catharsis may be painful. It's best to pull out the arrow out of a fresh wound even if it hurts.
I profoundly disagree. There's no reifiable absolute called "culture". Culture is no more than a loose, ever-changing collection of shared memes. It can, and sometimes should, be changed for the better.
I've never attempted to dictate how things should be, I only said that my religious convictions make me endeavor to see delusion skillfully destroyed in whatever form I meet it. Yours may not, but it is my bodhisattva duty to systematically dismantle popular reactions to the swastika. On the other hand, it is you who claim that I have lost good judgment, implying that such a thing as objectified good judgment exists to begin with. The Buddhas stamp your "good judgment" into dust: http://www.keithdowman.net/books/bme.htm#VIRUPA
What you don't understand is that I have already let go of compulsive attachment. However, I didn't sign up for a BS Gen-X religion where you just "let go" of difficult or unpopular issues and everything magically fixes itself. That's not what Buddhism is or how the eradication of delusion works. Never was, never has. Hence I unashamedly declare that: No one's to blame for your misunderstanding. You're not telepathic after all, but to mistake great compassion for craving or some other form of compulsive, unwholesome attachment is a serious failure of discerning awareness. In some contexts, it can be one of the biggest mistakes in your life. If my words still sound angry to you, do not forget that it's all your interpretation, taking place inside your head. You don't have to project your preconceptions onto speech patterns if you're willing to look beyond the superficial.
I felt strange enough and had glares in my neighborhood simply being a white guy with a close shaved head. Let alone sporting a swastika of any kind...
Another lesson in impermanence if you ask me...
Political correctness demands the offended group define the use of the offending symbol.
I also think Israelis might begin to sport "Hitler" mustaches, a common decoration in the pre- WW2 era, to help save this benign fashion.
If it weren't for the incessant Hitler shows on TV maybe we'd be closer in our culture to getting things back to normal.
http://www.cafepress.com/+buddhist_swastika_sweatshirt,18449018
A note about swastikas: the reverse swastika (which, curiously, is on the Korean temple) refers to shamanism. The other one refers to the dharma. At least around Inner Asia it does. I can't say for sure about Korea, but Korea does have shamans.