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More enlightened than......
Is it possible for a person to be "more enlightened" than another? If not, why is the buddha revered more than others who are / have been enlightened.
To be honest, I sometimes feel that buddha seems to be worshipped a little too much, so the idea of buddha becomes a little too close to that of a god and a state that no-one else can attain or live up to.
Have been meditating for a few years now, but am quite new to some teachings / practices in buddhism.
Andy.
To be honest, I sometimes feel that buddha seems to be worshipped a little too much, so the idea of buddha becomes a little too close to that of a god and a state that no-one else can attain or live up to.
Have been meditating for a few years now, but am quite new to some teachings / practices in buddhism.
Andy.
0
Comments
It's about the people doing the revering. I think the historical record shows clearly that the Buddha did not particularly want to be revered. Respected as a teacher, maybe, but not revered. I think it's fair to say that the Buddha wanted his followers to revere the primordial wisdom within themselves, and only take him as an example and nothing more.
To be honest, I sometimes feel that buddha seems to be worshipped a little too much, so the idea of buddha becomes a little too close to that of a god and a state that no-one else can attain or live up to.
I think most people here would agree with you. I do.
All remarkable people, all with something profound to give us, all shining examples of how an altruistic, giving and unconditionally Compassionate person should be.
He was a damn fine teacher.
We ALL remember the great teachers in our lives, that had an extraordinary impact on us at school, and it wasn't just about what they taught, it was more HOW they taught it.
The Buddha seems to me to have been a remarkable man, with a remarkable talent for getting his point across. So much so, that his list of grateful pupils is pretty long, I'd guess.
Better than Mr Chips, even.
Not sure if one person can be more enlightened than another person.
Not wishing to open a can of worms here,but I think that you are either enlightened,or on the path to enlightenment.
With metta
Yes of course.
The person who understands the Four Noble Truths and practices The Noble Eightfold Path is more englihtened than the one that does not.
I belive the Buddha thought that we should revere nobody, not even himself. respect, learn from, etc ... but revere is not really a Buddhist concept.
Me too...
I think if you read the PC you can get the airs of how he expected to be treated, and that is not as a god at all, quite the opposite The Dalai Lama is a good example of the kind of humility that we can imagine the Buddha would have magnified.
namaste
About the idea of what buddha implies, "close to a god", cant be argue. I mean that state its what it is, you cant say: "mm lets make him a little more human"
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sam buddhasa is the common Pali chant here in Thailand (I guess in other places too) that states something to the effect of "Homage to him who acheived enlightenment without the benefit of any teachings."
There is no need to worship the Buddha. Often when you see someone bowing, its not really to the man, but to the idea of open, self-less compassion. As far as why people do worship him, have you noticed how people tend to revere their heroes? With practice, hopefully whomever worships the Buddha will stop. With productive practice, they certainly will.
There might be people who are less stuck in the samsara than others, though I can't think of many reasons to compare. As a very early beginner, we might seek a teacher who is 'more enlightened' than us, but again, with practice that drive should dissolve. People are people, ranking them is unhelpful.
With warmth,
Matt
of course the buddha nature permeates space and so there is no way to reborn in a place where the buddha is absent. on the other hand its desirable to be born where he has actually been in the nirmanakaya (body in this world) and hear those teachings.
THE sure sign that we do not understand the Buddha's Teaching yet
Based on what we read in the Sutta/Sutras, even in Shakamuni's own lifetime, people treated him with an extraordinary level of respect...bowing to him, circling three times...bareing the shoulder and dropping to one knee.
It's not like monks or followers approached him casually with a "Hey Sid, how's it shakin'?" I don't think he was attached to it though.
Still our reverence to Buddhas is good I think. With our thoughts we create our lives. Our minds are like water, taking the shape of the vessel it is poured into. Buddha repeated cautions that we be careful with what we pour our minds into. Adoration of the Buddha is a very wholesome vessel to pour the mind into. I suspect that if such adoration spurs us on in practicing the Dharma, he would be ok with that.
Many people, especially in the west like to put down ritual. I disagree. Ritual creates a mood and a mind set. When we get too casual we lose something. This morning after meditation I found myself bowing and gassho-ing to my mp3 player I use for a timer! Because I am gratefull that it helps me in my practice.
(I will allow for the fact that Shin Buddhism is ALL about the gratitude, so I have a bias in that direction)
Secondly...I'm not sure I've heard any convincing evidence anyone else has achieved his level of enlightenment. At best people who we respect as very enlightened...as masters, rephrase Shakyamuni's teachings. They are still turning to his words and teachings.
In fact, I think people underestimate his level of enlightenment nowadays. They also underestimate their own level of ignorance and blind passions. Not so much here I must say, but I've visited more than a few Buddhist boards where the egomania was palpable! And it is always most pronounced in those who seem to feel they are very enlightened...and want you to know about how wonderful, wise, and supperior to you they are :crazy:
Thirdly...hard to separate fact from legend with him, but regardless he figured out things that were simply amazing...more so given the time in history and the general knowledge people had at that time. IMHO he is the greatest mind in recorded history.
So if we can carve politicians into mountains, I'm ok with statues of one of the greatest geniuses in the history of man.
As to the question.....yes.
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I think the concept that bugs me, is whether there’s a certain level of insight that when you suddenly get beyond, you become enlightened – but until that point you’re not.
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Maybe everybody could be said to be enlightened to some extent, it’s just that some people are more blocked from true wisdom because of their worldly desires and fears than others. And if everybody is enlightened to an extent, the term becomes a bit meaningless & difficult to understand (plus, it’s only really the individual themselves who can say if they’re enlightened). And it's too easy to aspire to acheive something rather than be open to something that has always been within.
I guess it’s easy to get confused when trying to express such a deep concept with words.<o></o> Anyway, glad I’ve found the forum – plenty of topics to get me thinking.
Andy.
It can be a method of tracking progress.
Many of the stages and paths of realization have indications etc. that can be valuable to the practitioner in order to make sure they are practicing correctly and that the appropriate result achieved.
The only progress we can influence without being asked is our own. I myself have really only studied Mahayana and Vajrayana, but those who are familiar with the Bodhisattva commitment would probably disagree with this. I would suspect there is something in Theravada that addresses assisting the progress of others.
I would suggest that in the context of Buddhism the thought that "The only progress that should matter is your own" would be seen as very narrow.
"Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity" - Shunryu Suzuki
PotAYtoe, potAHtoe
Suzuki Roshi would have probably disagreed with you on that one, but we'll never know for sure.
After taking refuge I wrote a note and sealed it with wax. It said.... " "Perfect Tathagata, Beautiful Tathagata, I open my heart to your Blessing, I open my mind to your Dharma, I have deep faith in your way"
It was a very skillful act.
Ofcourse there is "Nothing Holy, Only Great Space" but the devotional element is skillful, it sets the heart and mind right, it chastens, it leads to the stream. One thing we encounter in Sangha is a real aversion the that side of the Dharma among young practitioners. It is understandable because people have been burned by mom and dad's religion, but it often throws the baby out with the bath water and leaves a key part of the heart closed. Devotion to that which our gut tells us is the highest virtue, and love for those qualities in the "Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well" is skillful.
I'm ok with that.
I personally think he would both agree and disagree...AND... neither agree nor not agree...all at the same time. After all, he was a Zen teacher.