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In need of some direction

edited August 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Hi guys,

I'll try to keep this short so as not to bore you! I have a comfortable life, and I should feel a lot more grateful about everything I have in life, but I often find myself in slumps of depression. There are things that I want to get rid of in my life (mainly, alcohol) as it often causes me to sacrifice those things most important to me.

Whenever I've tried to quit before, feelings of guilt which may have arisen from previous actions disappear and so I've just turned back to bad behaviour. Whilst I've curbed these things (general stupidity, really) the feeling of guilt had gotten worse.

I'm looking for a way to drop any negative feelings and change my outlook. I am an atheist, albeit a spiritual one that has practised (probably poorly) meditation in the past.

There are meditation classes near to my home, and I was thinking about buying a book in order to stop focusing on guilt for minor things I have done (I'm not sure why, but compared to many guys I feel excessive guilt about thins), and learning more about ways to be a better person.

I come here rather than to the local Church, because I've always had difficulty believing in a divine force, but when I read bits about Buddhism, things just seem a bit clearer.

Thanks

Comments

  • nanadhajananadhaja Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Hi there.Well I hope that we can help you with our answers on this site.
    First of all alcohol just won't help.Been there done that.
    Secondly,guilt is a stupid emotion.It traps us.There are things that I have done in the past that I regret doing,but many of these things I can do nothing about.What I can do is try not to repeat these things.
    How about checking out some of the meditation classes that are near you,but be aware that sometimes when we meditate things that may prove uncomfortable can arise.Find a good teacher who can help you work through these times.
    May the teachings of Lord Buddha be a source of strentgh to you.
    May you be free from suffering and the cause of suffering.
    May you be happy and know the causes of happiness.
    With metta
  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    There are things that I want to get rid of in my life (mainly, alcohol) as it often causes me to sacrifice those things most important to me.

    If you already know that alcohol is a major factor in your emotional state I would strongly urge you to get help in dealing with that. It's definitely worth having someone to listen to your concerns and suggest options that may help you overcome this problem.
    Conure wrote: »
    I'm looking for a way to drop any negative feelings and change my outlook.

    As far as trying to be rid of negative feelings, it's more realistic to try and deal with them. There's no permanent way to ever be rid of negative thoughts or emotions (unless we become fully enlightened beings). The only thing we can do is find ways to cope with those issues when they arise. It may be helpful to try and sit with the feelings rather than trying to simply repress them or push them away.
    Conure wrote: »
    There are meditation classes near to my home, and I was thinking about buying a book in order to stop focusing on guilt for minor things I have done (I'm not sure why, but compared to many guys I feel excessive guilt about thins), and learning more about ways to be a better person.

    The meditation class might be a good place for you to start. Did you already have some books in mind? I am taking a meditation class and the required reading is called How to Meditate by Kathleen McDonald. It's been very helpful to me.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    I was thinking about buying a book in order to stop focusing on guilt for minor things I have done (I'm not sure why, but compared to many guys I feel excessive guilt about thins), and learning more about ways to be a better person.

    The Mindful Way Through Depression is good, and might be relevant.
  • edited August 2010
    In terms of your battle with alcohol I would suggest seeking out a counselor that can help you resolve what is going on internally. There is a lot of overlap between Buddhist practice and modern psychotherapy.

    The counseling isn't likely to be free, but you said you are fairly comfortable which I assume means you can afford it.

    Also, you don't have to do a 12 step program if that isn't your cup of tea, they aren't the only way. A good therapist will help you find the causes of your drinking. Once you know the causes the battle is half over.

    I do believe meditation will help, but it's not necessarily a quick fix. I recommend using both. The counselor to get to the 'meat' of the issue as soon as possible and implement a plan. The meditation to help you stay sober over the long term.
  • edited August 2010
    Before you do anything, you have to get rid of your attachment to alcohol. Some people on this forum disagree, but I think the 12 steps are very helpful.

    I'm actually going through it right now and I tried to practice meditation before I got sober, and it just didn't work.

    I would suggest that before you start any kind of pursuit of meditation or buddhism, you really focus on quitting alcohol.

    Google Alcoholics Anonymous. They have a directory and you could probably find meetings in your area.

    Go to a meeting labeled as "beginner" and raise your hand when they ask if theres anyone new.

    Also they will give you phone numbers. CALL THEM! That's the most important thing. Call them before you pick up a drink.

    Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking?
  • edited August 2010
    Hey again guys,

    Thank you for the replies. I don't really have an alcohol problem, I'm quite a calm natured guy usually. It's just, every so often I'll go out and have a night of crazy drinking which will often result in extreme feelings of guilt. I've got a lovely girlfriend and so, these feeling of guilt really hurt and can result in weeks of depression. When I first was with her I cheated on her twice, I did tell her which was extremely hard, and to see her crying hurt so much.

    Whenever I go out with friends and get crazily drunk, I always end up doing stupid things. They are stupid for two reasons, one, the actions in themselves are idiotic and I'd never act that foolish usually, and secondly, that I feel so down about things and life, when so many people are worse off than me.

    I've pledged that I'll quit drinking, it's not that I do it often, just that when I do it's extremely self destructive and guilt lasts a long long time. I think I have a view of what I want to be, and what I am, and they're usually quite close, but guilt is something I can't handle very well.

    I guess what I've said so far has little to do with Buddhism, but as I said, I've always had an interest in it. I am searching for a way to rid myself of past sins...It's just difficult.

    (I live in Kent, by the way BlackFlag)

    Thanks again everybody,

    Conure
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    Hey again guys,

    Thank you for the replies. I don't really have an alcohol problem, I'm quite a calm natured guy usually. It's just, every so often I'll go out and have a night of crazy drinking which will often result in extreme feelings of guilt.

    This is classic minimization. It leads to not taking action. It's a demon that has to be confronted.
  • edited August 2010
    Do you think so? Even though I may only drink once a month, just heavily? What do you think I should do? (Sorry for all the questions).

    Can you think of any reading I can do online, something to keep me occupied whilst I learn more about Buddhism? Some of the stuff I've read onBuddhanet.net is very interesting, and they have some ebooks I am yet to get through.

    Thank you
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Deleted! I had the wrong end of the stick!
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    Do you think so? Even though I may only drink once a month, just heavily?

    Yes, you are minimizing the behavior and the seriousness of the problems it is causing you and others. In your post you mentioned affairs, lots of crying on the part of the person you are supposed to love, an admission that you do incredibly stupid things when drunk and that it leads to days if not weeks of depression.

    That kind of stuff is not little, it is major. It is a train wreck in progress.

    The first thing I will tell you about Buddhism, since you asked, is that there are 5 precepts for lay people to follow. One of them is to abstain from sexual misconduct and affairs qualify. Another is abstain from intoxication. An intoxicated mind is incapable of mindfulness and if you aren't interested in being mindful (you will have to learn about this concept separately) then Buddhism won't be for you. This isn't to say one can't enjoy the occasional glass of wine, but it is to say that getting drunk and cheating on the one you say you love is 200% incompatible with a lifestyle that brings peace to oneself and others.

    I don't say this to be judgmental. I say this as one who is picking up the pieces of his own train wreck. Some pieces have been destroyed and cannot be repaired. I don't want to see you end up in the same place because I wanted to be kind and gentle and didn't call you out on your minimizing the seriousness of what you are doing to yourself and others.
    What do you think I should do? (Sorry for all the questions).
    In the short term, seek out and meet with someone who is well qualified to help you overcome addiction. This isn't a friend, this is a professional. These are not harsh people, they are, as a rule, incredibly compassionate people who also happen to have a lot of training and experience in helping others improve their lives. If money is an issue I am positive somewhere near you offers free or low cost help. It's also 100% confidential.
    Can you think of any reading I can do online, something to keep me occupied whilst I learn more about Buddhism? Some of the stuff I've read onBuddhanet.net is very interesting, and they have some ebooks I am yet to get through.

    Thank you
    I will leave the reading recommendations to others. I wish you wellness and peace.
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Hi Conure, I agree with what people have been saying about getting help with the alcohol issues you may have. If you really want to change the way you are right now, you have to address what is causing you to turn to alcohol in the first place. Once you understand this you can then take actions to get you back on the path you wish to be on.
    A good bit of advice is to be more mindful of what exactly is going on in your head, your thoughts, emotions etc etc, try to see as an outsider looking in on yourself how they arise and why they arise and try not to get caught up in them. This mindfulness is very good in my experience for actually getting to the root of why I feel the way I do. Also I know it is easy to be down on yourself, I have been there many times, but dont forget that it is just as easy to be up about yourself just by actively cultivating positive thoughts and emotions about yourself and loved ones, metta meditation is very good for doing this and again I highly recommend you try it. I know it is very hard to get out of a rut when you are in one, but I have to say that for every rut I have been in since I found Buddhism, by showing Resolve, Dedication and Faith in the Dharma and practicing the advice above I have managed to get myself out of it. For yourself even if you do not fully take to heart the Dharma the mindfullnes and metta meditations can be of great help to you I think, if you practice them with resolve and dedication.
    Anyway I hope you get through your difficult time and I wish you Happiness and Peacefulness in your life.

    Metta to all sentient beings.
  • edited August 2010
    username_5 wrote: »
    Yes, you are minimizing the behavior and the seriousness of the problems it is causing you and others. In your post you mentioned affairs, lots of crying on the part of the person you are supposed to love, an admission that you do incredibly stupid things when drunk and that it leads to days if not weeks of depression.

    That kind of stuff is not little, it is major. It is a train wreck in progress.

    The first thing I will tell you about Buddhism, since you asked, is that there are 5 precepts for lay people to follow. One of them is to abstain from sexual misconduct and affairs qualify. Another is abstain from intoxication. An intoxicated mind is incapable of mindfulness and if you aren't interested in being mindful (you will have to learn about this concept separately) then Buddhism won't be for you. This isn't to say one can't enjoy the occasional glass of wine, but it is to say that getting drunk and cheating on the one you say you love is 200% incompatible with a lifestyle that brings peace to oneself and others.

    I don't say this to be judgmental. I say this as one who is picking up the pieces of his own train wreck. Some pieces have been destroyed and cannot be repaired. I don't want to see you end up in the same place because I wanted to be kind and gentle and didn't call you out on your minimizing the seriousness of what you are doing to yourself and others.

    In the short term, seek out and meet with someone who is well qualified to help you overcome addiction. This isn't a friend, this is a professional. These are not harsh people, they are, as a rule, incredibly compassionate people who also happen to have a lot of training and experience in helping others improve their lives. If money is an issue I am positive somewhere near you offers free or low cost help. It's also 100% confidential.

    I will leave the reading recommendations to others. I wish you wellness and peace.

    That's exactly what I want. To be mindful, and to stop counter productive behaviour. I've tried before and failed, so tomorrow I'm going to find out about alcoholics anonymous. I've found meditation has helped in the past - Do you think with the right attitude, Buddhism can help me become a better person? I guess that question is obvious, otherwise you wouldn't all practice it.

    Anyway, any online/book recommendation would be great.

    Thank you again, guilt is a hard thing to deal with, and I'm determined to make sure I never let it take over my life again!
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited August 2010
    I'm a recovered alcoholic, but I don't think Conure is anything like an alkie if he only drinks about once-per-month; even if he does drink heavily on that one occasion.

    Conure, if a doctor told you that you could never drink again or you would die, how would you feel? And would you be able to stop drinking given that the doctor told you that?
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    Do you think so? Even though I may only drink once a month, just heavily? What do you think I should do? (Sorry for all the questions).

    Your behavior sounds like binge drinking, which is not really indicative of addiction. However, Conure, seeing as you've already noticed how problematic these drinking episodes have been for you, why do you continue to do it!?! It seems like it would only take your amply open and observational mind one or two times before it saw the path that drinking takes.... you drink and then have a negative result of bad feelings and hurting loved ones.

    How many times would you hit yourself in the face with a hammer before you do something different? Would you have to ask others? :)

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure, with regards your drinking, in AA we're taught that there's two parts to the illness of alcoholism. The first part is physical and the second is mental. You need both parts to be an alkie.

    Now, the first part - the physical part - is that when we put alcohol into our bodies, for some reason we never seem to have enough. We want more and more of it; it's a craving. I've always had this; the first time I drank I ended up in hospital at about 14 years old.

    I know many of my non-alcoholic friends have had similar cravings once they started drinking.

    So to solve that problem all you have to do is don't take the first drink and the craving will never happen; you won't get drunk. Simple really, but not if you have the second part of the illness. The second part is the mental obsession to drink. This can be described as planning or thinking about drinking when you're not drinking. For example I would organise my day so that I could get the stuff done that I had to do, so that I could start drinking as early as possible. And you can't not not drink; at some point will power will fail, you'll think that when you drink that it'll be different from the last time; and you will end up drinking, which will trigger the craving, and off you go on another drinking spree.

    So if you have both components of the illness, a physical craving once you start drinking, combined with a mental obsession about alcohol; then you're an alkie and AA would love to have you join their ranks.
  • edited August 2010
    I don't think I'm an alkie then, just a young fool that has tried and failed to make a change a few times. I think, before, I gave in because the feeling of guilt passed. I think AA might help me quit entirely, and give me an incentive to never drink again, though will I be entirely out of place as I am not addicted?
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    That's exactly what I want. To be mindful, and to stop counter productive behaviour. I've tried before and failed, so tomorrow I'm going to find out about alcoholics anonymous. I've found meditation has helped in the past - Do you think with the right attitude, Buddhism can help me become a better person? I guess that question is obvious, otherwise you wouldn't all practice it.

    There is no question it can bring you a lot of peace. It's an inward journey, understanding how your brain works by seeing it in action. Seeing how it responds to things, seeing what the causes of behaviors and beliefs are. In many respects it's incredibly similar to psychotherapy except in this case you are the patient and the doctor.
    Anyway, any online/book recommendation would be great.
    In terms of books, there is a thread in one of the forums here where folks recommend books. Do you want a general intro to Buddhist theory/practice type book or a more specific one to address guilt issues more specifically? if the former I quite like Mindfulness in Plain English and Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness by Bhante Gunaratana. If the latter I haven't read any so can't make recommendations.

    Access to Insight , this article , and this one have all been online readings I have benefited from.
  • edited August 2010
    username_5 wrote: »
    There is no question it can bring you a lot of peace. It's an inward journey, understanding how your brain works by seeing it in action. Seeing how it responds to things, seeing what the causes of behaviors and beliefs are. In many respects it's incredibly similar to psychotherapy except in this case you are the patient and the doctor.

    In terms of books, there is a thread in one of the forums here where folks recommend books. Do you want a general intro to Buddhist theory/practice type book or a more specific one to address guilt issues more specifically? if the former I quite like Mindfulness in Plain English and Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness by Bhante Gunaratana. If the latter I haven't read any so can't make recommendations.

    Access to Insight , this article , and this one have all been online readings I have benefited from.

    Thank you very much. I know for a fact the guilt will pass when I forgive myself, and to do that I need to change my behaviour. I just need to not drink. I will keep reading, too. Guilt for me, takes a long time to cure. I hope by committing to Buddhism and working on forgiving myself, I can be a better person around others too. Undo, to some extent, any pains I have caused to others.

    You've all been very supportive,

    Thank you
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure, Tradition 3 of AA is that AA is open to anyone with a desire to stop drinking, so you don't have to be an alkie to join the organisation; they'd be happy to see you; but I doubt you'd identify with the vast majority of AAers.

    But AA Meetings are extremely friendly and safe places and no-one would object to your presence. You could also phone your AA telephone number; easily googable; and chat with the person who answers the phone. That person will be a recovered alcoholic.

    And stop beating yourself up; you're only human like the rest of us; and humans make mistakes.
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    Thank you very much. I know for a fact the guilt will pass when I forgive myself, and to do that I need to change my behaviour. I just need to not drink.

    Here is something I found helpful. This may or may not be of help to you, but I encourage you to try this. It is an exercise I developed for myself after gaining an insight into how my own mind works. To give you a little background, I would drink all day, maybe do some stupid things and then go to sleep. In the morning I would feel badly for the drinking plus whatever stupid thing I did. Later that day I would start drinking again. What I didn't realize at the time was I was using alcohol to stop beating myself up and then I would beat myself up for using the alcohol... pretty insane, huh?

    Through meditation I found that even without drinking I would beat myself up all day. I wasn't consciously aware I was doing it, I was only noticing the effects of having done it. It was through meditation that I saw the self condemnation arise.

    Anyway, here is the exercise I do:

    1. Sit and focus on the breathing for 10 minutes or so. This is to help quiet the mind and enhance concentration.
    2. Rewind to the moment I got out of bed and then scan through the day trying to recall every word I spoke, every thought I thought and every action I did that I was not proud of. As the memories came up I would just sit with it and notice what mental states or feelings arose in response to the memory. No self talk of any kind allowed, just sit with the memory, notice what the mind does in response and move on. In practice this takes perhaps 5 minutes.
    3. Again rewind to the moment I got out of bed and then scan through the day trying to recall every word I spoke, every thought I thought and every action I did that I thought was pretty good or downright great of me. As the memories came up I would just sit with it and notice what mental states or feelings arose in response to the memory. No self talk of any kind allowed, just sit with the memory, notice what the mind does in response and move on. In practice this takes perhaps 5 minutes.

    I have found there to be many benefits to this practice, but the one I will share with you (the others you can experience for yourself, they can be a surprise ;) ) is that I began to develop a realistic self image. Sure, I did some things I would rather I hadn't, but I also did some things that spoke very well of me. For some of us it's really easy to remember and focus on the negative we do. Allowing our minds to feel good about the good we do is much more difficult. To be balanced and have a proper self image requires seeing both sides of the story accurately.
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited August 2010
    If you don't like the effects of alcohol in you're life...

    quit it...
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »

    Anyway, any online/book recommendation would be great.
    If its about Buddhism then check this out its free and gives a great introduction to Buddhism in all of its forms.

    http://www.freebuddhistaudio.com/study/foundation

    Metta to all sentient beings
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Tosh wrote: »
    I'm a recovered alcoholic, but I don't think Conure is anything like an alkie if he only drinks about once-per-month; even if he does drink heavily on that one occasion.

    Conure, if a doctor told you that you could never drink again or you would die, how would you feel? And would you be able to stop drinking given that the doctor told you that?
    I agree I think Conure sounds like a classical "BINGE DRINKER" not an alchoholic.



    metta to all sentient beings
  • edited August 2010
    Thank you very much guys. I find at the moment depression comes every so often. I did some good things today, I donated a lot of material things I have never needed, to charity. I have also contacted AA who say they can help with binging too. I am determined to never drink again.

    One last bit of advice please. I've started reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, and find it filling a spiritual void, but I have some issues.

    I have always been an atheist of the understanding that death is only the end of a non permanent consciousness, which is also subject to change. That said, I do not and don't think I ever will believe in a literal reincarnation, in which something leaves my own body and inhabits the next.The closest I can get to this, is in the way a body decomposes and in some way goes on to becoming 'other things'.

    Please help me coincide these beliefs, because I am lacking spirituality in life, but my scientific understanding of the world is holding me back. One final thing..I find myself needing support when I forget good things about myself. Does anyone have any inspirational passages I could write on my wall to draw some strength from whenever I feel down?

    Thanks guys,

    Slowly but surely I will be a better person.
  • edited August 2010
    You do not have to believe in a literal reincarnation to develop your spiritual life. Many, many, many Buddhists do not believe in a literal reincarnation. And of course, many do. It's not necessary to hold this belief.

    You may prefer to think though that your actions (causes) put into motion effects and those effects will outlive you. Being a parent one of the things I think about is how my actions today will shape my children, often without them or I realizing it as it is happening. They will likely outlive me and possibly have children of their own.

    Stuff like that is how I think about the subject and I find it more than enough to be aware of without thinking about a literal rebirth. Just my thoughts, nothing authoritative ;)
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    Thank you very much guys. I find at the moment depression comes every so often. I did some good things today, I donated a lot of material things I have never needed, to charity. I have also contacted AA who say they can help with binging too. I am determined to never drink again.

    One last bit of advice please. I've started reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, and find it filling a spiritual void, but I have some issues.

    I have always been an atheist of the understanding that death is only the end of a non permanent consciousness, which is also subject to change. That said, I do not and don't think I ever will believe in a literal reincarnation, in which something leaves my own body and inhabits the next.The closest I can get to this, is in the way a body decomposes and in some way goes on to becoming 'other things'.

    Please help me coincide these beliefs, because I am lacking spirituality in life, but my scientific understanding of the world is holding me back. One final thing..I find myself needing support when I forget good things about myself. Does anyone have any inspirational passages I could write on my wall to draw some strength from whenever I feel down?

    Thanks guys,

    Slowly but surely I will be a better person.
    There is a good poster with sayings from the dali lama
    http://uk.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/49/MPW-24527

    If think there is another different one from HHDL as well. Anyway
    some of the advice can be quite inspirational. And you could always make your own and print them out.

    Metta to all sentient beings
  • edited August 2010
    Hi again guys,

    I've been doing some more reading, and there are some things which don't sit particularly comfortably. First, the idea that I should accept that my my girlfriend could just leave tomorrow, and as such I should have no attachment to her. She has always been there for me, through the most difficult times. I can't seem to reconcile these views.

    Secondly, I know you said that many Buddhists do not believe in literal reincarnation, but what do you believe? I'm finding the beliefs of buddism really beautiful, but I am an atheist and nothing can really change that. That said, I entirely believe that things are unpermanent, in a sense, but not from moment to moment. I'd say love takes on a semi permanent existence.

    Can anybody help me reconcile the beliefs and aims of Buddhism with a purely atheist perspective?

    Thank you everybody for so much help!
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    Hi again guys,

    I've been doing some more reading, and there are some things which don't sit particularly comfortably.

    good. sincerily. that's good. Question everything. Not to be cynical, but to investigate. This ain't your grandpappy's religion where it had be be swallowed in it's entirety with a chaser of blind faith.
    First, the idea that I should accept that my my girlfriend could just leave tomorrow, and as such I should have no attachment to her.
    She could leave tomorrow. She could be hit by a car. There is no reason not to accept reality, right? This doesn't mean you have no attachment to her in the sense that you don't love her. Buddhists have preferences. They have things they like and don't like. Have you read a well reviewed Buddhist primer book yet? Concepts like attachments are confusing until you read an author who is skilled at explaining these concepts in a way that makes sense.

    Let me put it this way. Since *practicing* Buddhism my love and appreciation of my wife has only grown, not lessened.
    Secondly, I know you said that many Buddhists do not believe in literal reincarnation, but what do you believe?
    Personally I only believe what I can prove. One day I will die.
    I'm finding the beliefs of buddism really beautiful, but I am an atheist and nothing can really change that.
    I am atheist as well.
    That said, I entirely believe that things are unpermanent, in a sense, but not from moment to moment. I'd say love takes on a semi permanent existence.
    Not sure you are understanding impermanence fully. Again, I recommend a well reviewed intro book as they settle a lot of questions and confusing concepts straight away. I frustrated the heck out of myself trying to understand Buddhism from the internet sources.
    Can anybody help me reconcile the beliefs and aims of Buddhism with a purely atheist perspective?
    I can only tell you I have no issues whatsoever reconciling my practice with my lack of beliefs in gods or supernatural phenomenon or my need to have evidence. I really don't reconcile anything. There is no need to. Reincarnation or believing really advanced folks levitate or can engage in astral travel is not at the core of Buddhism or even close to it. It can be interesting to think about from time to time, and being open to being surprised seems like a healthy approach, but there is no need to believe anything that you can't verify for yourself. The Buddha himself said so, many times. He even went so far as to tell people to believe nothing just because a respected teacher (such as himself) said so.

    If you are asked to accept an intellectual proposition, use your brain to see if it is true or not. If you are told 'do this and this will be the result', then do this and see if the result is what was claimed. That's all the more faith a person needs to be Buddhist.
  • edited August 2010
    She could leave tomorrow. She could be hit by a car. There is no reason not to accept reality, right? This doesn't mean you have no attachment to her in the sense that you don't love her. Buddhists have preferences. They have things they like and don't like. Have you read a well reviewed Buddhist primer book yet? Concepts like attachments are confusing until you read an author who is skilled at explaining these concepts in a way that makes sense.

    That's true, then perhaps I should be treasuring the now rather than slaving and worrying over the past and future, truly enjoy the moment? Maybe that is how I should interpret it.

    Let me put it this way. Since *practicing* Buddhism my love and appreciation of my wife has only grown, not lessened.

    That is very sweet, and something I hope to attain. Do you think it's because you love all people more?


    Not sure you are understanding impermanence fully. Again, I recommend a well reviewed intro book as they settle a lot of questions and confusing concepts straight away. I frustrated the heck out of myself trying to understand Buddhism from the internet sources.

    I have got "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying". I'm finding it a fulfilling read but I don't like all the miracles. Like I said, I'm an atheist with a love of spirituality, good will to others, self improvement etc. I avoided theistic religion because I can't follow that which I don't believe. One quick question regarding this by the way! I've found upon meditating in the past I've entered a lucid dream state, almost like astral projection (as it's described, I don't actually believe in it in a physical, non mental way!). I've felt myself float out the window, hit the ceiling etc. I am presuming this has happened because I've not focused properly, and enterered some bizarre sleep state? Do you (or anyone reading!) have any experience with this?

    I can only tell you I have no issues whatsoever reconciling my practice with my lack of beliefs in gods or supernatural phenomenon or my need to have evidence. I really don't reconcile anything. There is no need to. Reincarnation or believing really advanced folks levitate or can engage in astral travel is not at the core of Buddhism or even close to it. It can be interesting to think about from time to time, and being open to being surprised seems like a healthy approach, but there is no need to believe anything that you can't verify for yourself. The Buddha himself said so, many times. He even went so far as to tell people to believe nothing just because a respected teacher (such as himself) said so.

    That is why I am finding Buddhism more and more appealing :)

    Thanks again everybody, I have not experienced this amount of warmth and information on the internet...ever!

    Best wishes to you all!
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    That's true, then perhaps I should be treasuring the now rather than slaving and worrying over the past and future, truly enjoy the moment? Maybe that is how I should interpret it.

    Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
    That is very sweet, and something I hope to attain. Do you think it's because you love all people more?

    To an extent. Metta meditations I have found very powerful. In terms of the love for my wife increasing I think it has to do with a few things. One is that as I learn more about how my mind works from moment to moment I see that sometimes there are negative thoughts when there really shouldn't be. I used to be oblivious to these thoughts so they affected my feelings and overall mood without my even realizing it. Another part is that in a sense I am getting to know her again. After 19 years of marriage I figured I pretty well had her figured out. I was wrong. It took getting to know myself to be able to know her more accurately, if that makes any sense. Lastly, empathy. Empathy isn't easy for me, I suspect a lot of men have issues with it. You can't really generate loving kindness without empathy growing as a side effect. Seeing things as she does is new to me, but it's letting me know just how deep and rich she is and before I was too self absorbed to notice.

    I have got "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying". I'm finding it a fulfilling read but I don't like all the miracles. Like I said, I'm an atheist with a love of spirituality, good will to others, self improvement etc. I avoided theistic religion because I can't follow that which I don't believe. One quick question regarding this by the way! I've found upon meditating in the past I've entered a lucid dream state, almost like astral projection (as it's described, I don't actually believe in it in a physical, non mental way!). I've felt myself float out the window, hit the ceiling etc. I am presuming this has happened because I've not focused properly, and enterered some bizarre sleep state? Do you (or anyone reading!) have any experience with this?

    I don't have experience with it. I have heard that there is a meditative practice within some Buddhist circles that aims to develop lucid dreams. How it is done or why it is desirable I have no idea. I won't comment further as I am out of my element with this.
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited August 2010
    The Four Steps To Wisdom

    The first thing you need to do is get in touch with negative feelings that you're not even aware of. Lots of people have negative feelings they're not aware of. Lots of people are depressed and they're not aware they are depressed. It's only when they make contact with joy that they understand how depressed they were. You can't deal with a cancer that you haven't detected. You can't get rid of boll weevils on your farm if you're not aware of their existence. The first thing you need is awareness of your negative feelings. What negative feelings? Gloominess, for instance. You're feeling gloomy and moody. You feel self-hatred or guilt. You feel that life is pointless, that it makes no sense; you've got hurt feelings, you're feeling nervous and tense. Get in touch with those feelings first.

    The second step (this is a four-step program) is to understand that the feeling is in you, not in reality. That's such a self-evident thing, but do you think people know it? They don't, believe me. They've got Ph.D.s and are presidents of universities, but they haven't understood this. They didn't teach me how to live at school. They taught me everything else.

    Negative feelings are in you, not in reality. So stop trying to change reality. That's crazy! Stop trying to change the other person. We spend all our time and energy trying to change external circumstances, trying to change our spouses, our bosses, our friends, our enemies, and everybody else. We don't have to change anything. Negative feelings are in you. No person on earth has the power to make you unhappy. There is no event on earth that has the power to disturb you or hurt you. No event, condition, situation, or person. Nobody told you this; they told you the opposite. That's why you're in the mess that you're in right now. That is why you're asleep. They never told you this. But it's self-evident.

    The third step: Never identify with that feeling. It has nothing to do with the "I." Don't define your essential self in terms of that feeling. Don't say, "I am depressed." If you want to say, "It is depressed," that's all right. If you want to say depression is there, that's fine; if you want to say gloominess is there, that's fine. But not: I am gloomy. You're defining yourself in terms of the feeling. That's your illusion; that's your mistake. There is a depression there right now, there are hurt feelings there right now, but let it be, leave it alone. It will pass. Everything passes, everything. Your depressions and your thrills have nothing to do with happiness. Those are the swings of the pendulum. If you seek kicks or thrills, get ready for depression. Do you want your drug? Get ready for the hangover. One end of the pendulum swings to the other.

    This has nothing to do with "I"; it has nothing to do with happiness. It is the "me." If you remember this, if you say it to yourself a thousand times, if you try these three steps a thousand times, you will get it. You might not need to do it even three times. I don't know; there's no rule for it. But do it a thousand times and you'll make the biggest discovery in your life.

    The fourth step: How do you change things? How do you change yourselves? There are many things you must understand here, or rather, just one thing that can be expressed in many ways. Imagine a patient who goes to a doctor and tells him what he is suffering from. The doctor says, "Very well, I've understood your symptoms. Do you know what I will do? I will prescribe a medicine for your neighbor!" The patient replies, "Thank you very much, Doctor, that makes me feel much better." Isn't that absurd? But that's what we all do. The person who is asleep always thinks he'll feel better if somebody else changes. You're suffering because you are asleep, but you're thinking, "How wonderful life would be if somebody else would change; how wonderful life would be if my neighbor changed, my wife changed, my boss changed."

    We always want someone else to change so that we will feel good. But has it ever struck you that even if your wife changes or your husband changes, what does that do to you? You're just as vulnerable as before; you're just as idiotic as before; you're just as asleep as before. You are the one who needs to change, who needs to take medicine. You keep insisting, "I feel good because the world is right." Wrong! The world is right because I feel good.


    Anthony de Mello
  • edited August 2010
    Thank you pegembra, very inspirational :) I'm about to head out to find another book on Buddhism. I just want the basic teachings, ways to love myself and others, I guess a 'starters guide'.

    Are there any definitive starter books?

    Thanks all
  • edited August 2010
    pegembara wrote: »
    The Four Steps To Wisdom

    The first thing you need to do is get in touch with negative feelings that you're not even aware of. Lots of people have negative feelings they're not aware of. Lots of people are depressed and they're not aware they are depressed. It's only when they make contact with joy that they understand how depressed they were. You can't deal with a cancer that you haven't detected. You can't get rid of boll weevils on your farm if you're not aware of their existence. The first thing you need is awareness of your negative feelings. What negative feelings? Gloominess, for instance. You're feeling gloomy and moody. You feel self-hatred or guilt. You feel that life is pointless, that it makes no sense; you've got hurt feelings, you're feeling nervous and tense. Get in touch with those feelings first.

    The second step (this is a four-step program) is to understand that the feeling is in you, not in reality. That's such a self-evident thing, but do you think people know it? They don't, believe me. They've got Ph.D.s and are presidents of universities, but they haven't understood this. They didn't teach me how to live at school. They taught me everything else.

    Negative feelings are in you, not in reality. So stop trying to change reality. That's crazy! Stop trying to change the other person. We spend all our time and energy trying to change external circumstances, trying to change our spouses, our bosses, our friends, our enemies, and everybody else. We don't have to change anything. Negative feelings are in you. No person on earth has the power to make you unhappy. There is no event on earth that has the power to disturb you or hurt you. No event, condition, situation, or person. Nobody told you this; they told you the opposite. That's why you're in the mess that you're in right now. That is why you're asleep. They never told you this. But it's self-evident.

    The third step: Never identify with that feeling. It has nothing to do with the "I." Don't define your essential self in terms of that feeling. Don't say, "I am depressed." If you want to say, "It is depressed," that's all right. If you want to say depression is there, that's fine; if you want to say gloominess is there, that's fine. But not: I am gloomy. You're defining yourself in terms of the feeling. That's your illusion; that's your mistake. There is a depression there right now, there are hurt feelings there right now, but let it be, leave it alone. It will pass. Everything passes, everything. Your depressions and your thrills have nothing to do with happiness. Those are the swings of the pendulum. If you seek kicks or thrills, get ready for depression. Do you want your drug? Get ready for the hangover. One end of the pendulum swings to the other.

    This has nothing to do with "I"; it has nothing to do with happiness. It is the "me." If you remember this, if you say it to yourself a thousand times, if you try these three steps a thousand times, you will get it. You might not need to do it even three times. I don't know; there's no rule for it. But do it a thousand times and you'll make the biggest discovery in your life.

    The fourth step: How do you change things? How do you change yourselves? There are many things you must understand here, or rather, just one thing that can be expressed in many ways. Imagine a patient who goes to a doctor and tells him what he is suffering from. The doctor says, "Very well, I've understood your symptoms. Do you know what I will do? I will prescribe a medicine for your neighbor!" The patient replies, "Thank you very much, Doctor, that makes me feel much better." Isn't that absurd? But that's what we all do. The person who is asleep always thinks he'll feel better if somebody else changes. You're suffering because you are asleep, but you're thinking, "How wonderful life would be if somebody else would change; how wonderful life would be if my neighbor changed, my wife changed, my boss changed."

    We always want someone else to change so that we will feel good. But has it ever struck you that even if your wife changes or your husband changes, what does that do to you? You're just as vulnerable as before; you're just as idiotic as before; you're just as asleep as before. You are the one who needs to change, who needs to take medicine. You keep insisting, "I feel good because the world is right." Wrong! The world is right because I feel good.


    Anthony de Mello

    What if I have brought this depression on through continual unmindful ness, I have to say, right now despite her forgiving me, I have cheated on my girlfriend in the past and continue to make the same mistakes. I feel now things are changing but I can't shake the feeling of guilty and self dislike. It's almost like I can feel it residing within me, making me sad and guilty. I feel like a terrible human being and no matter how I try to rationalise it it won't go.

    Maybe time and continued mindful practice is what will cure it, if I can say in 6 months "I have changed, that person was not me, I am new" - I feel like the person she loves, and continues to love, is not deserving. Until I feel I am deserving, until every essence of past actions has gone, I worry I will continue to feel this darkness.

    I am taking positive actions; I've signed up for several charities to do voluntary work, and I am going to AA. I'm a binge drinker, but perhaps to hear from more people the suffering that alcohol has caused, will reinstill in me a reason to steer clear. I've also applied for councilling, a few things in my past I need to deal with.

    Over the past few days, you have all been a great help to me. Is it against a buddhist philosophy to search out a new self? Try to redevelop myself to be different to before? I'm still fuzzy on the teachings, as I haven't had a chance to fully understand them.

    Perhaps a lot of meditation will help too. I'm not expert (or even, really a beginner!), but last night I repeated "let the guilt pass on, you're taking action to change" for about 15 minutes, and felt a lot more relaxed at the end.

    Sorry for the long, confused rant. My friends are quite useless for this stuff, as they're happy to continue behaving awfully. But that's not for me, I am far too sensitive!
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    Are there any definitive starter books?

    Thanks all

    See this link.

    Should keep you busy for a little while ;)
  • edited August 2010
    username_5 wrote: »
    See this link.

    Should keep you busy for a little while ;)

    Wow, loads of those are available online! Thank you :)
  • edited August 2010
    "When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. ... Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."

    This is exactly what I needed to coincide my scientific beliefs with Buddhism. Do many Buddhists believe this, is it a Western cop out?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    "When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. ... Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."

    This is exactly what I needed to coincide my scientific beliefs with Buddhism. Do many Buddhists believe this, is it a Western cop out?

    Humorous answer :D : http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6494
  • edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    This is exactly what I needed to coincide my scientific beliefs with Buddhism. Do many Buddhists believe this, is it a Western cop out?


    Western beliefs? The author has this said of him on Wikipedia:

    The venerable Prof Walpola Sri Rahula Maha Thera (1907-1997) was a Buddhist monk, scholar and writer. He is considered to be one of the top Sri Lankan intellectuals of the 20th century. In 1964, he became the Professor of History and Religions at Northwestern University, thus becoming the first bhikkhu to hold a professorial chair in the Western world. He also once held the position of Vice-Chancellor at the then Vidyodaya University (currently known as the University of Sri Jayewardenepura). He has written extensively about Buddhism in English, French and Sinhalese. His book, What the Buddha Taught, is considered by many to be one of the best books written about Theravada Buddhism.<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup>


    Sound western to you?:D
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    "When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. ... Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."

    This is exactly what I needed to coincide my scientific beliefs with Buddhism. Do many Buddhists believe this, is it a Western cop out?
    I think most Buddhists believe this (but not all). Its important to note that most Buddhists also believe that a sentient being inherits the karma from previous lifes.


    Metta to all sentient Beings
  • edited August 2010
    zidangus wrote: »
    I think most Buddhists believe this (but not all). Its important to note that most Buddhists also believe that a sentient being inherits the karma from previous lifes.


    Metta to all sentient Beings

    That's the bit I have a problem with. I don't believe in anyway that our sentient Karma is continued, I think it all ends with this body. Before I go any further into understanding this, is this belief going to be much of a hindrance?

    Thanks
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Conure wrote: »
    That's the bit I have a problem with. I don't believe in anyway that our sentient Karma is continued, I think it all ends with this body. Before I go any further into understanding this, is this belief going to be much of a hindrance?

    Thanks
    Although the principle of karma is a big part of Buddhism at the end of the day it is up to you to accept or not accept this idea or not. Nobody forces anyone to accept anything they do not believe in. In Buddhism you have to investigate and come to a logical conclusion yourself of whether or not you believe in something. If you go deeper into Buddhism your outlook might change on this matter, but to follow a Buddhist life you do not need to fully accept the principle of karma in my opinion, though I do myself. If think you do need to have belief and faith in the four noble truths tough, and also a sincere wish for all sentient beings to be freed from suffering and its causes, if you wish to follow a Buddhist life. Thats what I rekon anyway.


    Metta to all sentient beings
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