Hello,
I'm not exactly a beginner with Buddhism, have done a Meditation retreat and certainly am a Buddhist, maybe a slow progressing one.
My question is regarding Pornography. The Buddha has stated that the less sexual conduct you have the better it really is. mistakeDuring my retreat, I noticed desires of the flesh in my head, and it was one of the hardest things to ignore during meditation (and I'm a smoker, have been for 4 years, not smoking was much easier).
Anyhow, I've read that physiologically, when humans watch porn, dopamine is released, and like any other chemical dopamine has a point of saturation, so what we tend to do is go after much more smuttier stuff looking for that same dopamine release (no moderation).
Looking inwards, I fear that this is trying to bring about new egos in the mind that are far more unhealthier than the type of ego I would prefer and can lead to more skillful means of living.
Don't mistake this for me thinking I'm going to hell or something, nah, nothing like that, it's more like I'm realising that I'm coming to a point where I'm entertaining the thought of accepting egos that are unhealthy. It's giving up one ego for another, changing my identity from one to another, in a negative way.
I hope you understand what I mean. Let me try and rephrase just in case: I'm a layperson, and happy as one right now, if anything I'm trying to be a better layperson
So the advise I'm seeking is help with giving up pornography. I really do believe it's a very unhealthy attachment and is taking me away from progressing not only on the path, but in a layperson perspective, finding a nice woman and loving her with metta. I feel the later is a more skillful means when it comes to desires of the flesh, and pornography and I'm sure other things in my life are just unskillful and in the way.
Much thanks for your time,
With Metta,
Buddha's Disciple
Comments
I don't meditate regularly either, because of College. I can certainly try meditating next time thoughts of sex creeps into my head and try to let it pass. Some words of encouragement and wisdom would be nice.
The advice I have received by teacher after teacher (in books) - don't have a real life teacher yet is to let things go, unless they won't go away.
If they won't go away, then they become the object of meditation. They remain the object of meditation until they either go away, or they reveal themselves as not a cause, but an effect. Once they reveal themselves as an effect, their cause manifests itself. Then the cause becomes the object of meditation. Once you know the cause of the effect, you can implement steps to deal with/remove the cause.
In other words, the desire to entertain sexual lust that you find unskillful isn't a cause unto itself. You can't will the desire (effect)to go away, you have to understand it's cause or causes and address those.
Otherwise, "giving things up" is just not doing them. The same set of coping mechanisms applies.
Thanks for that thought provoking reply. The first thing that came to mind was, I have identified the cause and effect to be a chain, where lust precedes by pornography, an effect and a cause. Where the effect of pornography is this consideration of change in perspective that is unhealthy and worrisome.
Certainly being human I will have strong primitive desires, with which I'm no where ready to give up. But for the time being, I know these needs can be dealt with in much more skillful means than I currently do.
I'm not aware of 12 step programmes. I've given up a certain substance I smoked, which was really easy when I realised the effects of it.
I don't want the effects of Pornography to bear fruit for me to understand. I hope this is just the beginning of nipping something at the root.
We determine the kind of people we become. If we want to be a person who lives according to love and respect, we can't make exceptions for some people.
Sexual repression probably isn't the way to go. I was completely celibate for two years and my sexual desire didn't go away. But certainly there is a healthier way to give the desire its due now and then, than watching porn.
There is also the factor of how people who are into porn tend to need the sex to be more and more degrading as time goes along.
First off, I'm not driven to despair, it's not really pornography or masturbation that is the problem (nothing illegal in question nor do I think masturbation is bad), it is the degradation as Albert has reiterated. The degradation which has gone to a point where I can recognise it is a bad thing to continue. I suppose you can say that the root cause is lust, but before I get to that, I would like to stop watching porno, which I know will help steer me in the right direction.
I'm just looking for practical help.
I am not sure I understand. Which of these is correct:
lust > view porn > experience problem OR
view porn > experience lust > have problem ?
Doing the dirty with your hand is alright every so often for the purpose of fantasising but it's still a lonely activity. Hopefully you'll grow out of porn to an extent and move on.
http://www.sa.org/top/
It's a 12 Step programme.
I do a 12 Step programme for being an alcoholic, and it worked great for me. But a strange thing is, early on in my sobriety I found I didn't watch porn; I just stopped. The desire was just removed; it seemed to harsh for me.
But over time, I have started watching it again, just a little to begin with, then it crept up.
I think I need to do some work on my spirituality!
The former, where a mind object gives rise to a citta and I experience lust, then I continue to entertain lust by watching porn and then the problem, degradation, and what I realised recently, I was entertaining accepting this degradation just for the lust, that's how degradation continues. It's a very strong attachment, this lust.
That's the direction I prefer to take this change in habit.
Tosh,
Thanks for the link, I'll certainly have a look around that site.
Richard,
Thanks
Part of watching porn is being shocked by it. So long as you view it as disgraceful, bad and impure it's going to turn you on more. I bet, like many people, you have no problem watching simulated violence in one form or another. That's really backwards and insane, truly. It's socially acceptable- there's no big brother or super ego frowning at you.
Maybe one day you will no longer see it as smutty or non-smutty but more as stupid and boring and not stupid and boring. Don't get me wrong there's a whole big spectrum out there and some 'viewing' material is definitely sick, all I'm saying is don't make such a big fuss out of it. Conceptually you have to think more about the general morbid curiosity and bloodlust we share as a culture. When you're raised on it, you can't exactly undo it, but you can understand it better- that it's some sort of nice/nasty or naughty but nice thing that you like. At the end of the day there's much more to life.
There will always be a part of you that likes it, just as you know what it's like to enjoy smoking, but hopefully you'll grow out of it
I don't see lust as a problem. Lust gets a bad wrap and in many contexts deserves it, but another way of expressing what you are experiencing is 'normal, healthy, human biological urges'.
I would not encourage you or anyone else to suppress something entirely normal. Moderating it to a reasonable degree sure, but not suppressing it.
Anyway, moving on...
The problem, as I see it, is that when you experience normal, healthy, human biological urges this leads to a desire not to indulge those urges through sexual intercourse or masturbation which are both normal and healthy responses, but to view pornography.
I am not going to go so far as to say viewing pornography is bad. Depending on the ethics of the producers and the actors they hire it may be entirely consensual and just like any other job. However, it isn't always like this and so you feel degradation from viewing it. So, the desire to view pornography is what you want to go away, correct?
This is doable. While millions of people view porn, it is certainly not the case that everyone desires to view porn as part of meeting their biological needs. So, you don't need to have this desire either if you choose to not have it.
One approach you could take and probably already have is to fight the urge. To tell yourself you shouldn't feel what you do or tell yourself that you are a bad person for having the desire. This doesn't help, as you already know. What this does is it takes a small urge and makes it a huge, irresistible urge.
So, to overcome this urge you already know that a full frontal assault is futile.
If you can't fight it what do you do? Give in? Of course not as that won't resolve the feeling of degradation.
You take the middle path.
The next time you experience the urge to view pornography go sit in meditation. I assume you have some experience with the focus on the breath meditation? Do that for 5-10 minutes. It doesn't matter how successful you are in keeping your concentration on the breath, it only matters that you apply enough gentle effort to return to the breath when you become aware your concentration has left it.
At the end of this short period one of two things will be the case:
1. The desire to view porn is no longer present
2. The desire to view porn is still present.
If the desire to view porn has left congratulations. You now have a really easy method of overcoming the urge to view porn whenever it arises. The urge wasn't anywhere nearly as strong as you thought. What you thought was a fire breathing dragon was really just a tiny little puppy. It will grow weaker over time now that you understand how feeble it is. You now realize it was your fighting the urge that gave it it's strength.
If the desire to view porn is still present, then that desire becomes the object of meditation instead of the breath. How this desire will manifest for you I can't say. It may be a mental image or a feeling or a bodily sensation. It's form is irrelevant. If you are presently experiencing a desire make it, in whatever form it manifests itself as the object of meditation. Just as you don't think about the breath or talk to yourself about the breath, neither do you do this with the desire. You just sit with it and observe it. If you find your concentration moving to another object unrelated to the desire to view porn, allow this. Don't hang on to the desire if it chooses to reveal it's impermanence. If you find yourself talking with yourself about the desire, go back to the object as soon as you become aware this has occurred.
If while observing the desire as an object it reveals it's impermanence (it goes away/another object arises in it's place) congratulations. You now have a very easy way to dispatch this desire every time it arises. Again, it wasn't the fire breathing dragon you thought, it was just a little puppy. It will lose it's power over time now that you know how weak it really is.
If the desire volunteers itself as an object of meditation for much time at all this is good. This allows you to observe it until it reveals it's changing nature. It will reveal it's cause. You don't have to work at this. The fact that it is lasting as an object means it will change all by itself and reveal it's cause. The cause is not lust or normal sexual desire as sexual desire does not always lead to a desire to view porn. It's cause is something else. Once it's cause has revealed itself, the battle is mostly over because you now know where the desire to view porn is rooted; where it draws it's strength from. Sever it.
In closing I want to point out the above is not my own idea. This is a method taught by many teachers and is applicable to anything we wish to overcome by understanding it.
i've had trouble with a porn addiction as well. i think because so many people downplay (or just don't realize) the negative affects of porn and it is often considered "normal", most people don't notice that they have a problem.
my experience was similar to yours in that it starts out simple, but you progress to smuttier and smuttier stuff for the same feeling. there was a point where i wondered how i got where i was and if it was just about the taboo or some may say, perversity level, involved in the topic on the screen. there becomes no moderation at this point and it is very weird once you become aware of this phenomenon. this was my, "WTF?" point. haha. i should probably also mention that i never watched anything that would be illegal or violate any rights. i'd still classify it under "gross" though haha.
i don't watch porn anymore but i still get the urge every now and then. what helped me break my habit is that i began to become aware of the actual effects of porn on my life. firstly, it was a waste of time. secondly, i did feel a certain amount of shame afterward. thirdly, i was concerned that i began to have a dependency on it... somewhat of a pavlovian reflex... in regards to masturbation and orgasming. fourthly, and most importantly, it began to cause issues in my relationship. i won't go into too many details, sufficed to say that once i became aware of the real consequences of my actions, i didn't like what i saw.
the internet porn situation these days is such that you can find literally, whatever you want (and a hell of a lot of what you don't want) with ease and in abundance. i believe that what we observe, as well as what we seek out, has an influence on our minds. especially when it comes to something as misunderstood as sexual desire.
it also helped me to no longer view porn as something harmless or "normal". once i really focused on the negative influences of porn on my mind and in my life, it became much less attractive to me. another thing i noticed is that it is not an addiction that grows worse over time, rather, the more i engage in it... the stronger the desire is. the more i keep it "fresh" in my mind, the more i want to go back to it. so now, i mostly don't even think about it until i am randomly reminded of it. and when that happens, i just... let it go...
i think the buddha would have agreed with school house rock when they said, "knowledge is power!" haha
In the end I was wrongfully accused of stealing and fired, and I'm still extremely bitter about the whole experience. The only good thing is that it helped me establish what I don't want in a workplace!
I believe trying to be celibate or repressing sexual desires can mostly be not natural. Some people on rare occasion can deal with it rather well. But just look at all those Catholic priests that molest children. That happens because their natural desires were trying to be repressed and then that's when something unnatural and terrible happens. One should ask their gut and their brain what sounds best, before always thinking in fundamentalist ways.
I don't think anyone said there was anything wrong with ethically produced porn indulged in moderation.
The OP wishes to not experience a desire to view porn just because of a normal, biological urge. That is what this thread is about. I think.
For example: one sees a member of the opposite sex. There is a feeling of attraction.
If you are aware of a general, obsessive or disproportionate interest in matters sexual, and were practising asubha, the signs attended to in relation to that body are chosen accordingly. What we usually tend to do is pay attention to the superficial signs like the face, the head hair, the breasts, the waistline, etc. With asubha, one contemplates the body with a different - and deliberate - approach. The picture on the left is of a human parasite. We all have a variety of these on and in different parts of our bodies. When you next feel inclined to kiss and lick and suck various parts of another persons body you could bring this picture to mind. What kind of feelings does that bring up as you contemplate that now? Kind of puts you off doesn't it? The idea is not to repulse but to be reflective.
• The important thing to understand with asubha is that it is not trying to make everything look disgusting or make it seem as if the world is all just a sick joke. What it is trying to do is provide some balance. When we consider the second Noble Truth - desire - it is this energy of attraction, lust, wanting, greed, etc. that spins us round and round. Seeing attractive things is fine - wanting attractive things is fine - but when that wanting drives us or deludes us then we are caught in the sticky web of the world. Asubha tries to show the other side of the coin.
http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/lifestyl/medi/a-sub.htm
That's correct. It's not the urge or the porn, per se... I'm not concerned with ethics, there's not much I can do about that, but what I can do is learn from my own direct experience, and like some others have pointed out, I too am noticing the negative effects of porn.
username_5, you've reminded me of the basics of letting go. Practice is really what is necessary, I will watch mindfully for any urges. Thanks.
With all the talk about degradation around porn I just wanted to chime in with a comment.
At it's root, we as humans manifest biological urges but then we overlay them with morals and codes of ethics which can lead to the extremes of overindulgence or abstention. Psychologically, again at a very base level, we humans associate sex with love. It's really a stretch to try and connect the image of a wretch with his dick in his hand in front of a computer screen viewing smut and masturbating with loving kindness or compassion. However - I say there is a connection...in the abstract. We little humans go to uncanny lengths to feel love - or what might be mistaken for love - but unmistakenly we are motivated by a need for and a feeling of love in this pursuit. Undeniably, we do need to sort it out as well. It is a jumble to say the least. If you check out porn and you are okay with it - seems no big deal. If it is troubling but you find yourself returning to the habit - examination and meditation upon it as a subject of meditation may help - so may simply burning out on porn after fifty years as the sex drive diminishes. If it causes suffering, well, that is a huge motivation to quit. I say just don't be so hard on yourself - forgive yourself. I forgive you.
Agreed that porn can totally mess up your life. The thing is, it can also mess up the lives of performers as well. I found it extremely helpful to focus loving kindness meditation towards favorite people I had been obsessing over.
I suggest you try this method Advice. It makes these people much more human and if you can develop some compassion for them, it is much easier to stop.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1577319109?ie=UTF8&tag=hardzen-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1577319109
he says, if your gonna jerk off just jerk off...
interesting. i've read a few of his books before. i might check this one out... have you read it?
on a side note, i don't think that there's anything wrong with masturbation. i think it's completely natural and i don't experience the negative effects from plain old masturbation minus porn.
To summarize: 1) Get into a relationship. 2) Be mindful of your urges. 3) learn to disassociate the lust from porn and "just jerk off"
I believe Buddha or a teacher said that there is nothing that will catch a man quite like a woman. In my opinion, the best thing you can do is begin to notice the drive as it is happening. When I notice my body become desirous, it feels to me like there is a tingling energy that is present between the object of desire and my genitals. If I ignore this energy, it will easily build to the point where it can be very demanding of me to act upon it.
So, rather than ignoring it, I dissipate it through mindfulness. I consciously broaden that feeling to include my whole body, not just my genitals. Then, I also look upon the rest of the world around me, not just 'her'. These little moments of 'lusty sparks' then help to open my awareness to the beauty and balance of the world around me. I wonder if this process could help you at all?
The trap to avoid is using that spark to solidify an object of your desire to bring you to climax. That's a classical conditioning cycle that is unhelpful in gaining any kind of clarity. Instead of lustily looking upon that classmate and imagining having sex with her, recognize that you are more alert in that moment, and there are far more potent things you could be doing with that alertness than imagining.
Also, do not be ashamed by your sex drive, or by masturbating in response to pent up energy. If you're in college, you're probably of an age where sex is very biologically present for you. You just need to get your mind present in response. As you become more alert to what your body is going through, unhealthy patterns will naturally fall away.
With warmth,
Matt
Im only on chapter 3 and a very slow reader.
Hey aMatt,
What do you mean you broaden it to include your whole body? How do you do that?
Do you mean like Vipassana? Where you begin to use mindfulness (sati) to scan the rest of your body for sensations and watch them arise and pass? That will certainly work because it does really home in on the concept of impermanence through direct insight, I've had experience with that.
But it's a difficult one to do, because I find that I need to build up concentration to be mindful, build up sati, and that through anapanna (breathing) before going into any form of Vipassana.
Not at all hard on myself... just a very conscious and determined effort to change. With everyone here's help hopefully.
The other thing is that my wife has really given me hell about it. and i deserve it for the way that it effects her. Im not saying that its what everyone should do,but in my case i have really attempted middle grounds of it. The extreemes are not abstaining and indulging. Self loathing reifyies self, Objectifying reifyies self. I love the idea of meditation and counting breaths,
Thank you, Thank you , Thank you
All for you courage and willingness to walk through the tough times.
I saw a phychologist who told me it was bad, and I believe her.
Good luck, I kinda stated these things because I don't think there should be a debate about, well maybe you could watch it or it's not that bad. I think if you don't want it in your life anymore that's should be the end of the discussion with porn.
Ignore above, my house mate thought this thread was funny and decided to post that, it's not easy living with "kids".
the more important question is, does it cause problems for your life?
a personal thing: one of my fondest memories from when I lived in a temple in asia was when I had relations with a girl that was totally hung up on the fact that I lived in a temple. is that really that much different from women that are totally hung up on the fact that people will watch them?
Buddha's disciples preached the eightfold path...
Um... ok, that was my house mate.
Thank you for that, Shanyin. I only looked at this thread this a.m. and was not feeling up to the sort of response this subject deserves or to express my surprise at some of the responses.
Where to start? Perhaps, as addiction has been mentioned, we can take what Thich Nhat Hanh says about alcohol, quoted on another thread, and apply it here too. Each pornographic image has an effect far beyond the solitary viewer.
As we are so often reminded, The Dhammapada kicks off by reminding us that intention comes before all things. Nothing is more revealing of our intention is where we fix our attention. If we are serious about the Noble Eightfold Path and any sort of practice, examining, recognising and, if necessary, adjusting our intention is of crucial importance. The more our intention and attention are on the Path, the more it becomes the line of least resistance; but if attention leads us away from focused intention, we are taking serious risks that we miss the Path entirely.
I remember being very struck by the monastic notion of the "discipline of the eyes" and then met the notion again as I learned the impediments to 'one-pointed' meditation. Visual input conditions my mind and distracts. Pornographic images score very highly on the distractometre.
Avoiding or ignoring pornography may help towards peace 'within' but, once I recognised that it lacked skill for me, I found that the production of the images, the fact that there is a market for them, disturbed me too. My encounters with the women's movement of the '70s confronted me with many arguments against pornography and challenged my support for 'freedom of speech': "Surely," I would argue and hear again today, "if all involved are consensual and competent adults, isn't it against our demand for freedom of the individual to oppose it?"
Truly, I must admit that I have not come to a definite conclusion on the subject. What I do know is that, whether we are attracted or repelled by pornographic images, both mental states are part of the Second Noble Truth, origins of suffering.
Buddha's disciples preached the eightfold path..."
Yeah, and I'm sure they did lots of stuff that went against that in their time too. (my first clue is the rule for monks about masturbation: You can masturbate, but only if in your sleep and no semen was expended. someone had to have been a horrible lair when they were caught, "Oh, no, I was asleep! Honest!")
The main point of the Eight fold path is for people that haven't come to the ability to figure out what is right or wrong for themselves. and only an individual can figure that out. Maybe for you watching porn is wrong. for someone else, watching porn may very well be the best thing they can do. It's not up to me, or you, or anyone else, to tell a person what is right or wrong for them.
at best we can only guess what someone's situation is, and the reasons they do things. and a guess is a horrible reason to say, "do this!" "do that!" "go here!" "go there!"
Like Bodhidharma said, "nothing holy."
Buddha left most of his teachings purposefully vague. what is sexual misconduct for one person isn't for another. you can see this yourself if you go check out a thread where everyone is trying to pin down exactly what the phrase universally, as in, for everyone, means.
There is such a thing as the edit button. Tell your house mate he pulls any more stunts like that, you'll find yourself on the wrong end of a Moderator.
Got it?
Sharp and blunt at the same time....;)
I can't help but laugh at this... okie dokie... I "Got It" (TM). For the record, I left this thing on and went out... did not catch what he'd done till he brought it up.
OP, if you want ways to help overcome these things... try reading about reasons. Weigh the options.
I love Brad Warner. I didn't know he was coming out with a new book. That's definitely on my list of books to get now. Its off topic, but I haven't actually heard any Zero Defex. I'm gonna have to get some of those albums. One of the books convinced me to see Repo Man, and I just watched it the other night. it was a really kick ass movie. Yah, I defininitely recommend all his books. He's all about a no bullshit approach to Buddhism.
Luckily, after listening to Buddhist teachings I started to deal with it in several ways, which I would like to share with you. This is a kind of analytical meditation that I developed and practiced every day shortly after my normal meditation practice. It has wonderful effects. I am now free from this addiction and very happy about it. It was like a daemon which was pulling out my life force.
First, I daily contemplated the negative effects this addiction has on me and on other people in this and next lifetimes. My favorite metaphor is of a thirsty person considering whether he should drink a glass of poison. Although, drinking the poison will for a short time quench his thirst, it will soon lead to much more severe suffering. So, a wise one would never drink poison, how ever thirsty he might be, but will search for clean water. I also considered that watching porn could leave imprints in my mind flow, which would manifest their influence after death, during the intermediate state of bardo and negatively influence the future rebirth.
Second, I contemplated the fact that actually watching porn does not bring the satisfaction which I expect when I have the desire. Although during the process I experienced some kind of fleeting satisfaction, the immediate after-effect on my mental state was a negative one. It brought about the feeling of insecurity, irritation, inability to deal properly with life situations, overall quite an unpleasant experience. So, it is actually totally unsatisfying.
Third, I explored the actual objects of desire - naked female bodies or copulating male and female bodies. Following the great Buddhist master Aryadeva ("400 verses concerning the practices on the way to enlightenment"), I asked myself, what is actually so desirable in these objects. If you consider separate parts of the body, cut out from it: head, feet, arms, etc. they are not only not desirable but very disgusting. Also, if you consider the body without skin. If you look at what is really inside the body: the blood, inner organs, urine, shit, you would never call these things attractive. It is completely disgusting. Then, if you magnify further and look at smaller constituent parts of the body, tissues, cells, molecules, atoms, they are quite neutral, neither desirable, nor disgusting. So, actually there is nothing at all that you can call desirable in these objects. The attractiveness of these objects is completely a product of my imagination!
Thus, from this perspective, performing this action of watching porn seems completely insane. It is something that brings only negative effects in all aspects of your life, does not bring any lasting joy or satisfaction. Moreover, the drive to watch porn is based on seeming attractiveness of its objects - naked copulating bodies. but in fact, this attractiveness is a product of imagination, has no reality whatsoever. So why do I continue to ruin my life in this way?
These contemplations also worked powerfully when they were combined with the four reminders:
1) precious human birth, valuable possibility to practice dharma and attain liberation and enlightenment
2) impermanence and death: I know for sure that I will die, but I don't know when
3) infallibility of the law of karma: every action of my body, speech and mind will have effect in the future. Any action of body, speech and mind that I perform under the influence of ignorance and negative emotions will lead to
4) suffering for myself and others.
Another thing I did was with respect to this and also some other negative patterns in my life. After dedicating merit each time I do meditation, I prayed "May this practice help me to overcome the tendency to perform this negative action".
I wish you all to be free from negative actions and negative emotions, be happy and realize your fullest human potential!