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using psychtropic drugs
hi everyone. :-)
what is the Buddhist "stance" on using psychotropic drugs?
by psychotropic i mean the whole gamut of brain/cns-affecting drugs: therapeutic (antidepressants, mood stabilizers, etc.), recreational (alcohol, marijuana, etc.), spiritual (peyote, ayahuasca, etc.).
are they to be avoided, period? can they, if used wisely, be a viable part of one's path? are certain drugs more harmful, less harmful? etc.
thanks!
rachMiel
what is the Buddhist "stance" on using psychotropic drugs?
by psychotropic i mean the whole gamut of brain/cns-affecting drugs: therapeutic (antidepressants, mood stabilizers, etc.), recreational (alcohol, marijuana, etc.), spiritual (peyote, ayahuasca, etc.).
are they to be avoided, period? can they, if used wisely, be a viable part of one's path? are certain drugs more harmful, less harmful? etc.
thanks!
rachMiel
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Common sense prevails here. If you wish a glass of wine over dinner, have at it. If you wish a case of beer to get wasted you won't be able to remain mindful or exercise sound judgment and thus is incompatible with a path seeking to be mindful.
There is no such thing as a spiritual drug. There are only drugs that lead to old hippies thinking they are unlocking the secrets of the universe. Secrets they don't ever seem to remember when they aren't wasted or they do remember, but there aren't any real insights to be found.
Drugs to manage an illness may make mindfulness more difficult (or may have no effect), but they are certainly understandable and bring no discredit to those who need them.
Since then I've had a few more experiences with mushrooms that led to insights I have successfully integrated into my practice.
They are a tool, and if you use them skillfully and don't expect them to do the integrative work for you, they can be helpful. This is based on my experience.
Thanks, username_5. :-)
I've never taken a hallucinogenic drug/herb, for fear that I would never come back from the trip. (Which might actually be a good thing, if "I" never came back ...) But I have used drugs to assuage anxiety/depression, and I've never found them to be detrimental to my practice. Though sometimes I wonder if they contribute -- along with life style, diet, etc. -- to my NOT being more in the "natural state."
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/jcbody.htm
Fascinating read.
....The upshot it is that drug experiences can be "deep" in a way that completely misses the point, and the effects on body and mind are a hinderance.
What have the cultures that used such psychotropic drugs with regularity contributed to the world? Other than that they did drugs I mean?
I have done pot, booze, heroin, LSD, shrooms and probably something I am forgetting. I do not look fondly upon any of it. Sure, when I did LSD I gained the experience of tasting music and it was neat, but it contributed nothing to real life. When I did shrooms it was somewhat similar to LSD except that instead of feeling a knot in my stomach from LSD I experienced a genuine illness in my stomach as the shrooms taste anything but good.
I didn't gain any insight into myself or the world though at the time I was using I would have said otherwise.
These days I see others who started on the same path I started, but who stuck with it. What I see is not good at all. Nice people, sure. Wise people? No. Just worn out addicts whose minds and bodies are shot and they are no closer to enlightenment than the day they began.
It's not something I recommend due to it's potential to deceive and addict. Those so affected either never wake up to reality or they wake up after decades that they go on to refer to as 'wasted years'.
This is a path that never leads to enlightenment, only regret, often decades later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogenic#Cultural_use
I don't think it's possible to say which paths do or do not lead to enlightenment.
You are dead wrong. Find a teacher mugzy. Go to real teacher.
What makes you think I don't have a real teacher?
The fact is that I don't think it is possible to say that any path is wrong, or that it will never lead to enlightenment. Unless you can somehow see the future, there is no way to say "This path or that path will not lead to enlightenment." How could you possibly know the end results of all actions?
I don't know what this means
What does this wiki article have to say about a drug using culture contributing anything of meaning, substance or value to a culture? Nothing. If you feel otherwise, copy paste the part you think says otherwise.
In the gentlest way possible, you are being an idiot. Why are you here if you really feel that way?
This....
it means wannabe games are cute online, but not on this topic.
Richard is right, the above is not in line with the Buddha's Teachings...
"Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion" (SN 56.11), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, August 25, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html.
The Buddha makes it pretty clear what does and does not lead to Enlightenment. It was the first thing he taught and all subsequent Teachings are related to this.
With Metta,
Guy
(P.S. Don't do drugs kids!)
He didn't know that particular part of the Buddha's Teaching, that's all, I don't think he deserves to be called an idiot...let's keep it friendly.
Gentle reprimand taken and accepted.
Yes, but they aren't Buddhists.
But:
http://www.beezone.com/RickFields/high_history_of_buddhism.html
Interesting read. Thank you for the link.
In New York a student walked into the zendo on acid, sat on his zafu until he felt enlightened enough to get up off his cushion in the middle of zazen, then knelt in front of the teacher, Eido Roshi, rang the bell, and walked off non chalantly into the small rock garden in back of the zendo. Eldo Roshi followed, and the two stood locked eyeball to eyeball, until the teacher asked, 'Yes, but is it real?" and the student, who seemed to have held his own till then, fled.
He fled because the answer was no.
If Dr. Suzuki sounded the alarm, the Americans were more moderate in their reactions. Ray Jordan, a former student of Nyogen Senzaki's and then an assistant professor of psychology, had written in Psychologia that "LSD might be a useful aid both to the realization of prajna [wisdom], and to the development of meditational practice." but a sesshin with Yasutani-roshi had since convinced him that he had been mistaken. The sesshin had "included a moment which the Roshi identified as kensho," and Jordan was now able to testify that even the deepest and most powerful realizations associated with LSD were weak and dim compared to the reality and clarity of sesshin events." Jordan admitted that "in a small number of cases psychedelic experiences may have revealed to persons the everyday presentness of the Pure Buddha Land [but] from that point on the psychedelics are of no value whatsoever insofar as the Way is concerned. Without relying on anything one must walk step by step, moment by moment in the daily reality of the Pure Land."
A "sesshin" is a silent meditation retreat in traditional style. Drug use may have been endorsed by some practitioners but it is not endorsed by any authentic Buddhist teachings, precisely because of the above. But of course, if one wants to partake in them, that is one's own decision. I certainly did when I was younger.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Buddhist note:
Put extremely simply the 5th Precept gives us the opportunity to decide to abstain from taking any harmful substances which confuse the brain, muddle the mind and addle the thinking.
This includes any recreational substance, be it alcohol, drugs and even (as far as many are concerned) cigarettes.
Drugs medically prescribed for diagnosed conditions affecting the mind are a necessary part of that person's life, and may be taken with a clear conscience. I personally know of some members here who, together and in partnership with their Medical advisers, have managed to reduce these specific drugs through the practice of Mindful meditation.
MODERATOR NOTE:
Discussion focussing on the benefits of taking hallucinogenic drugs for recreational purposes is STRONGLY DISCOURAGED as it is possible such discussion contravenes International laws governing Internet content (which are widespread, and include subjects which might cause interest to 'sexually perverted' individuals or terrorists, for example).
Please do not discuss any matter concerning drugs in a light which might be seen as encouraging the practice, as this might be detrimental to the forum founders, leaving them open to consequences.
Thank you.
(I've got to cut, paste and have this handy for future reference!!)
Carry on.....:)
That is not gentle, and it is absolutely unnecessary. For the record, I never said that I supported or denounced the use or practice of psychotropics. This has nothing to do with drugs. The drugs were not the issue.
I don't deserve to be attacked for expressing my opinion. The point I was making is that nobody can point to any action or chosen path and say, with any certainty, they cannot or will not reach enlightenment. You can't see the future. You don't know which actions will lead someone to enlightenment. Would you have called the Buddha an idiot for sitting under the bodhi tree?
I was simply making a minor point and you jumped to conclusions and insulted me for no reason.
Why am I here? I thought this could be a place to share my input and experiences with others, but being disrespected and condescended is very disheartening.
Just so you know, I get treated like garbage at work everyday by people who think it's okay to call me names. I do nothing but treat people with respect. If you want to search through all my threads, I've never insulted someone on a personal level because I didn't agree with what they were saying.
I pasted the wiki link because I thought it may be a start to get more information on the topic you mentioned. Apparently it was not useful, so I'm sorry I linked to it.
I still don't understand what this means, and by reposting it without changing your wording does not make it easier to understand. I don't know what a wannabe game is. I don't know how you think I'm doing that.
Somehow I gave people the impression that I said something I didn't, because my comments are being misconstrued.
After reading through the thread, your input came at a point where it seemed to be taking the pro drugs stance for spirituality. I think it's just that Username and Richard feel strongly about the subject, and, given their experiences, this is understandable if blunt. I think in another context your comment is valid and would cause no offense. Don't feel too bad.
Generally speaking I'll go out on a limb here and speak for my Sangha (the Thai Forest Lay Sangha of Toronto, and the Ontario Zen Group) when saying this kind of drug use is incompatible with Dharma.
Wannabe?.... There is alot of banter on this forum, alot of back and forth by new people with very little experience, no formal training.
After twenty years plus I am still just figuring it out, and starting to really practice. This is something I hear all the time from other long time practitioners.
That made me laugh out loud! Hahaha!
I can't say much of the Buddhist practice as I know VERY little of it, at the moment. I can say though, that I've seen alcohol and drugs destroy lives. Including that of family members. I know that weed is generally considered quite mild, but a few of my old friends got into the state that they couldn't even speak properly after a few years of using it. I can't imagine how it could be possible to be mindful in that position.
I've been lucky enough that none of my friends have been addicted to anything more serious, but I always viewed drugs as life destroying addictions which require more money, and people give up more and more, including their own dignity, just to get off their faces.
The problem is that society - Western Societies, haven't bought into the drugs ban. There's a kind of tacit acceptance of them by celebrities, rock stars, etc etc, and lots of confusion about whether they are good, bad, should they be legalised etc etc. Of course it's the young and relatively inexperienced most at risk from the worst aspects of drug use. Difficult problem.
I'm not talking about nonsense like alcohol or cocaine. I'm talking specifically about entheogenic hallucinogens like LSD, psilocybin, peyote, mescaline, etc.
I see what you're saying. And I would never say that these substances are vital to a fruitful Buddhist practice. But I think the situation is a little more complex than you're making it out to be.
Personally, you are not speaking for broadbased Sangha. Zig Zag Zen is a fun pop book, I have it. I suggest going to any teacher, not some new age pseudo-buddhist outfit, but any legitimate teacher representing an authentic lineage in either Theravada, Mahayana (Zen) or Vajrayana, and discuss this issue.
What is it that experienced practitioners and teachers have to say? That these substances are unnecessary, or that they proactively hinder understanding? If it's the latter, how so?
I'm assuming you haven't taken any of the substances I'm referring to. They are really quite interesting, especially in a Buddhist framework and context.
For another interesting view on the topic.
.
But lets not import the ridiculous modern prohibitionism into modern dharma, espcially not to new Buddhists.
Moving on...
I'm not going to get involved on the topic of psychedelics and Buddhism because it just won't end pretty.
I'm pretty sure the Buddha himself would rather you pop an Aspirin as opposed to sitting there with a migraine for 4 hours...
There are many threads about the use of drugs, especially marijuana.
With warmth,
Matt
Well said!
I very well may have misunderstood you and responded in a manner that was excessive and harsh. I apologize to you for that.
Thank you, I appreciate both your comments.
Okay well thanks for clarifying, however I still don't understand how I was playing wannabe games, online or otherwise.
I see what you mean, and yes I was not trying to take a standpoint. Maybe it was because I provided a link and followed with a comment that was more broad in meaning, rather than specifically about this subject. I didn't think I was inferring my support on the issue. Sorry for the confusion.