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What I find objectionable is the karmic effect on all those involved in the decision and execution of the sentence, as well as the society which enacts such laws. However much the 'law of the land' permits such taking of life, it is people, individuals, who must carry it out. Society demands that they carry, in their own lives, a debt which takes a fearful toll.
Will this debt not be payed? - when it is, does this not reinforce the karmic nature of samsaric existence for the being?
I can tell you the fire burns but the only way you'll really know is ny touching it.
It is such suffering that compels me to walk the path as an example to others.
It is my belief that the Buddha Shakyamuni gave us skillful means to escape from the round of samsara (read that as you will: rebirth or the circle of daily life).
When we permit the killing of another being, we take on ourselves a karmic debt that will have to be paid. When we vote for the death penalty, we must accept that we incur such a debt.
The bodhisattva in fruition, free of the delusions of samsara, frees others from such debt without incurring it themselves.
"The bodhisattva in fruition, free of the delusions of samsara, frees others from such debt without incurring it themselves."
I believe we are in agreement.
"It is my belief that the Buddha Shakyamuni gave us skillful means to escape from the round of samsara (read that as you will: rebirth or the circle of daily life)".
I am not understanding you. How does the fact that we have skillful means change who we are?
Mind you, as we all know here, "we" are co-arising, dependent phenomena, empty. Like a sculptor, we wield the chisel of the Dharma on the rock of samsara and free what has always been there.
I thin self defense is th eonly time when someone can kill. I myself would try to avoid killing the person but I know sometimes it cannot be helped. A few years back I had 7 guys almost ready to attack me when I got into it with one of their employees. In that split second I decided that is they came at me I was going to start killing as many as possible. I thanks God that they just surrounded me and gave me enough space and just waited for th epolice to show up. I actially had to fight a couple of them before thta happenned. I was in full drunken fist mode and they could tell I was an experienced fighter. One of them asked me if I was oging to take them all on and I just replied, "If I have to", looking at that person dead in their eyes. I was fighting gor honor that day but now I am a little wiser and I think if I wa sin the same situation I would avoid the conflict. I did throw the first blow. Actually I jumped in the air and kicked the guy in the stomach. :bowdown:
i guess it is kill or be killed in some cases. i look at my darling child and knbow that i would consider killing to protect her, but at the same time i dont beleive it is right. i would like to think i will never be put in that position, and also cannot say what i would do if i were.
i think everyone would agree that most people would go to any length to protect themselves. that is human nature. i reckon it is not up to us, however, to decide to kill another person as punishment. where does that leave the judge/executioner/firing squad? are they then murderers because of their job? that would have to be seriously bad karma...
Where would the cycle end?
First: Capital punishment for crimes: this is a decision which is taken by a state to enact the death penalty for certain crimes. In our modern world, those countries that still use this punishment tend to restrict it to crimes such as murder and treason.
It is the right of governments to enact such laws as they can, and they also have the duty to protect the society they rule. IMHO, the death penalty is inefficient, expensive and barbaric (but that's just me).
Having been alive in Britain before we ditched capital punishment, I recall the horror that swept over me when Gunther Fritz Podola was hanged. It was as if I had been struck at a deep and visceral level. It was then, aged 16, that I realised that a society which kills people in cold blood damages itself.
2. Self-defence and the defence of our loved ones:
This is a much more difficult question and one on which I cannot find a clear right/wrong, skillful/unskillful answer. I have no doubt that the Awakened can disarm the violence and threat of many enemies before things come to violence but most of us wander through the world simply reacting!
The best answer that I can find is that all violence has an effect on the person being violent so that restraint and measure are needed. To inflict death on another must remain a "no no" but will sometimes occur. Once it has, we have a hard path to follow because we will have acquired a psychic burden. Whether we see karma as affecting a string of lives or as simply an effect in this life, we are not going to 'shake it off'.
Choosing to learn and practise some form of 'martial art' is ceratinly skillful: it teaches more than just a set of physical movements but, in well-run schools of reputable traditions, will train the mind. Daily practice of mind and body becaome essential and we cease to react or abreact but become more aware.
3. Karmic debt:
Need I say more? The World-Honoured Buddha invites us onto the Noble Eightfold Path so that we cease to be the victims of karma, the curse of samsara.
BTW, I hear the Jesus call to metanoia as something similar.
i understand and agree. but until the entire world shares this train of thought there will always be gentle people who do not kill, and others. if everyone agreed not to be violent we would not have this issue. its a shame really.
I'm glad that you had enough wits about you to say the response "Thou Shalt Not Kill".
One of the things about the bible is - it can be very confusing. In one scripture, you can read "an eye for an eye", in another "turn the other cheek" in another "thou shalt not kill" and yet in another about how God tells someone to go kill someone else (like in the Old Testament where certain types of people or peoples should be killed).
I'm a firm believer that you can construe just about anything you want out of the bible. People have been doing it for centuries.
Now for the Death Penalty - I have to say that I have never really been opposed to it. With some of the atrocious things people have done to other people - I have a hard time understanding why it is that they should continue living and we should continue supporting them to live (ie prison).
But, I know within myself that I could never be the person to say, "Yes, you must die." I don't think I have that ability for "judgement" within me.
I also do not trust our court systems to be able to judge anything honestly, truthfully or correctly. You see, people are involved with our court systems and people are the downfall of our court systems. Court proceeding are games - this attorney against that attorney. The winning of the case or the losing of the case. The money to be gained or the money to be lost.
I honestly feel that so much gets wrapped up in a case - that it becomes hard to actually focus on finding out the truth. So, I can't say that I've ever agreed with a court hearing that has pronounced the death penalty on someone and followed through with it. There is too much cause for mistakes. There are a lot of people in prison who never did what they are accused of.
So, outside of that, I've never put it in a Buddhist perspective. And, I've never been forced to. But, I don't think I could ever make that judgement against anyone. I also agree with what has been written - someone's death - anyone's death shouldn't be the cause for celebration. I think in the big scheme of things - if you celebrate someone's else death because you think it's justified or they deserve it - I think in the long run it's going to take it's toll on you. One day you will think back to what you did and I wonder how it will affect you.
I think that, if nothing else, if someone that dies under these circumstances - it should just end and that be it. I would hate to look back on an event like this and remember how I laughed, cheered, partied - etc., about the death of someone - the death of someone that might have been innocent.
actually, yes, at this point, i do believe in the death penalty. i can't lie. just because i'm starting on the path of Buddhism doesn't mean I've changed completely. i would be lying if I said otherwise.
If there is someone that brutally murders men, women or children - and we know 100% sure, without a doubt, that they did it - why keep them in a prison? why feed them? why provide them with shelter? why put them in a place where they will suffer even more? why even recognize their existance? Just kill them. Put them out of this world - out of the minds of the survivors - just get rid of them.
But, my problem is the making 100% sure given the circus of our judicial system. I have no faith in our current system - well, more accurately, the people that work within these circles. While humans have greed and goals - I think it's hard for someone to get a fair judgement.
Do you think I should change? Do you think if someone murders many, many people - do you think they should go free? Is there some Buddhist decree of what we should do with these people? Should we let them just go free to, hopefully, come to some karmic decision that they shouldn't do this anymore? I don't think they will do it. They may continue to just keep killing people - and why should all these other people suffer?
actually, yes, at this point, i do believe in the death penalty. i can't lie. just because i'm starting on the path of Buddhism doesn't mean I've changed completely. i would be lying if I said otherwise.
Do you think I should change? Do you think if someone murders many, many people - do you think they should go free? Is there some Buddhist decree of what we should do with these people? Should we let them just go free to, hopefully, come to some karmic decision that they shouldn't do this anymore? I don't think they will do it. They may continue to just keep killing people - and why should all these other people suffer?
What are your thoughts?
Michael
I agree the judicial system has many flaws. Enough said on that point.
Ok. If we kill th ekiller does that cause the family any less pain? It may make them feel a little better but there loved one is still gone. The details of how it happenned are still burned into their mind. Wanting death on the killer is a form of hate. If you are Christian is it not your goal to become Christ-like? Would Jesus condemn this killer to death? I am not saying we let them go. Lock these people away so they cannot harm anyone else.
Buddhists believe that anyone who is part of killing another is Karmically responsible. That means if you vote on the death penalty and it is used to kill someone you are responsible in part for that person's death.
My mother was killed by a doctor 2 years ago. He messed up a simple procedure and she bled internally screaming my father's name, begging him to help her and screaming that she didn't want to die. My father had to watch all of this helpless to do anything about it. The thing is that the doctor who caused all of this went on vacation the day that my mother died. The hospital knew there was a problem with her and they didn't even have an IV in her or have her in ICU where they were supposed to have her. After all this I still do not wish the doctor dead who caused. He will get his by a higher power.
When you wish death onto others it takes away from you, not them.
Why should we incarcerate(sp?) a killer. Are we not holding him/her behind bars against their will? Are we not causing them pain/sorrow/hurt "forcing" him/her to do something that they do not wish to do? How is it that it is okay to force some people to do things but karmically bad to force other people to do other things.
And being a Buddhist - what higher power is going to do anything about this? I would think (knowing as little as I do about Buddhism) isn't this person just doomed to be reincarnated again - just further away from "nirvana" than they were in this life? What if they aren't a Buddhist, don't belief these beliefs and in this life could really give a rats-butt about what they've done.
I'm truly sorry about the ordeal with your mother and hope that you find some peace in your memories of her. As for the doctor who did this - I feel he should be held accountable in some fashion.
Also... some people do find solice in knowing that someone who murdered their loved ones no longer has the ability to enjoy a summer day, a spring rain, love, life, food, drink, family, etc. - because they can no longer enjoy these things with the family member of theirs that has been killed.
So - not saying that it's right or wrong - but some people do find comfort in knowing that a person like this no longer walks this earth.
Buddhists work toward enlightenment. If somebody murders another person, then they shall be imprisoned against their will, suffer and dislike it, an may never reach any form of enlightenment. That is punishment. The death penalty is simply getting rid of a problem, not making the guilty party live with their wrong doing and bad karma.
Holding these killers behind bars keeps them away from others. The first precept says not to harm any living beings. That also meens we have to protect ourselves. And you forget Michael that a lot of Buddhists do believe in a higher power. I am one of those for example. I feel it is God's place to punish these wrongdoers, not humans'. And yes families do find soloca in knowing these killers will not ever live another day like there family member but my point is very simple. Their loved one will never come back to life. Feeling a little better doesn't mean you feel better.
What About the people who master minded the 9-11 tragey? What would you do to punish them? Life in Prison? I thinl that sometimes the death penalty is alot kinder than what I may have in mind.
The 9/11 thing is no different. I don't think we should kill those people who are responsible. How many people someone kills is irrelevant. Stoping them is the focus of my posts.
So, Buddhism allows for people to be imprisoned against their will?
Those are the things I'm talking about - I don't know, in many respects, what is allowed and what isn't allowed.
It would make sense - I'm sure Buddhism allows for a person to protect themselves and their family. I can't imagine taking pacifism to the extreme where you just let some one kill you or your loved ones.
Thanks for the post.
Michael
P.S. As for the 9/11 thing - I guess I'm still too ignorant or unlearn-ed to think that the people that did this should pay. I don't believe that we should have invaded any country like we did. How many innocent civilians were killed during the invasion of Iraq? What good did it do? Where were all the weapons of mass destruction the government was pumping into the press?
Just like I don't think we should have invaded Kuwait when another country threatens the US's oil supply.
Why did it take us so long to send forces to break up the ethnic cleansing that was taking place between the Serbs and Croats. Are human lives that have no "oil" to offer the world of less import than others?
Buddhism tries to have compassion for all people because all people want to be happy.
It isn't the "Muslim's" fault for killing "Christian Americans". It was that being's defilements, especially hatred and delusion, that caused them to kill others. They are doing what their defilememts tell them is "right", or "good", or "benefitial". Compassion is seeing that these poor people do not see their delusions, they do not see the harm they are actually causing. Same goes for a "Christian killing a Muslim", or a "pro-lifer killing an abortion doctor", or "me killing a pig for dinner". It's no different. None of us truly realizes the damage we are doing because of the defilements "veil of ignarance drapped over our eyes".
Buddhism try to remove this veil so that we may see clearly all of our actions and their results. We walk the Path to free ourselves from these greeds, aversions, and delusions. With clear vision we can help teach others to realize the same thing. This is, to me, the only way to change our world without force or violence.
Try to answer the questions honestly:
What can we gain from a death?
What do we learn? (We already know that people die.)
What does our vengence accomplish?
Will this act make a lasting/permanent result? (i.e. Will it stop others from commiting the same act?)
Why do I have the right to kill and the person I kill does not? (As in enforcing the death penalty.)
If you say,"I can put a murderer to death because I believe killing is wrong." then what makes your beliefs different and/or more correct than anothers?
It seems to be all a matter of perspective and perception. I believe the Buddha just tried to point this out for us.
Amen Elohim. Also what gives us the right? Killing is wrong no matter what. The death penalty is just a justification for doing the wrong thing. And yes I would imprison someone against their will if it meant saving lives.
Comicallyinsane, you say "Killing is wrong no matter what". If a gentleman is pulling the trigger on a flamethrower aimed at a group of children and you are 20 yards away with a gun then I guess you are better off letting him be the one to do the killing?
Don't mean to be a smarty but I have to call out people who speak in such absolutes. Awhile back we had a discussion about "War never solved anything". The absolutes "never" and "anything" exclude 1945 and Hitler, respectively. We can say "War rarely solves things" and it would be difficult to argue. So how about "Killing is almost always wrong" or "Killing is wrong in all but a few extreme situations"?
I love being difficult.
That view is fine, but it is not what the Buddha taught. Killing should be avoided. Saying it is ok to kill who you think should be killed makes it seem that you place yourself higher than others. You now give yourself the right to take away someones existence.
What is really solved by war anyway? There are still genocides. In fact in Africa it is happening right now. There are still injustices. There are still crimes, murders, robberies, and rapes. If war truly solved anything and changed peoples views the world would be perfect by now after all the wars that have been fought. I don't see how killing or war makes this world better than it already is. That's my personal opinion anyway.
Comicallyinsane, you say "Killing is wrong no matter what". If a gentleman is pulling the trigger on a flamethrower aimed at a group of children and you are 20 yards away with a gun then I guess you are better off letting him be the one to do the killing?
Don't mean to be a smarty but I have to call out people who speak in such absolutes. Awhile back we had a discussion about "War never solved anything". The absolutes "never" and "anything" exclude 1945 and Hitler, respectively. We can say "War rarely solves things" and it would be difficult to argue. So how about "Killing is almost always wrong" or "Killing is wrong in all but a few extreme situations"?
I love being difficult.
Who says I have to kill the person with the flame thrower? Also seeing that you are a Batman fan you should know there is always more than one way of doing things.
Hi Everyone,
I am sorry if you misunderstood my question about those who master minded the 9-11 attack.
To me The death penalty is the ultimate wrong. For it is the most permanent of life. I feel that for the justice system in this country it is the fastest and easist road for them to understand.
All though I beleive that death in it's self is just a way to past on to another phase of understranding.
In my training as a shaman and buddist, I have come to understand that there are acutally many ways to die . With true death of the body being the ultimate. There is death in emotions, beliefs, Etc.
My Master once told me, that although we may die a thousand times in our life, there is but only one true death. And that should never be decided by another human being.
As for those who master-minded 9-11. Death would be to easy.
In all truth, it is not the death of the condemned that concerns me, it is the mental/emotional/psychic/karmic effect on all of us who are part of a society which legalises judicial killing.
The precept says: Do not kill. It doesn't say "Don't die". The former is a decision that we can, by and large, take charge of. The latter is nonsense and the person being killed has no say in the matter.
Comments
Will this debt not be payed? - when it is, does this not reinforce the karmic nature of samsaric existence for the being?
I can tell you the fire burns but the only way you'll really know is ny touching it.
It is such suffering that compels me to walk the path as an example to others.
Just a thought.
Dave
It is my belief that the Buddha Shakyamuni gave us skillful means to escape from the round of samsara (read that as you will: rebirth or the circle of daily life).
When we permit the killing of another being, we take on ourselves a karmic debt that will have to be paid. When we vote for the death penalty, we must accept that we incur such a debt.
The bodhisattva in fruition, free of the delusions of samsara, frees others from such debt without incurring it themselves.
"The bodhisattva in fruition, free of the delusions of samsara, frees others from such debt without incurring it themselves."
I believe we are in agreement.
"It is my belief that the Buddha Shakyamuni gave us skillful means to escape from the round of samsara (read that as you will: rebirth or the circle of daily life)".
Do you think Shakyamuni gave us these skills?
If so then who are we?
I am not understanding you. How does the fact that we have skillful means change who we are?
Mind you, as we all know here, "we" are co-arising, dependent phenomena, empty. Like a sculptor, we wield the chisel of the Dharma on the rock of samsara and free what has always been there.
This is what i was really trying to say.
You said that the Buddha gave us these tools - I would say he just showed us what was already there.
Gassho
It doesn't get any simpler than that. We have no right.
In all cases, of course, the karmic effect will ensue.
Please elaborate Simon.
Where would the cycle end?
First: Capital punishment for crimes: this is a decision which is taken by a state to enact the death penalty for certain crimes. In our modern world, those countries that still use this punishment tend to restrict it to crimes such as murder and treason.
It is the right of governments to enact such laws as they can, and they also have the duty to protect the society they rule. IMHO, the death penalty is inefficient, expensive and barbaric (but that's just me).
Having been alive in Britain before we ditched capital punishment, I recall the horror that swept over me when Gunther Fritz Podola was hanged. It was as if I had been struck at a deep and visceral level. It was then, aged 16, that I realised that a society which kills people in cold blood damages itself.
2. Self-defence and the defence of our loved ones:
This is a much more difficult question and one on which I cannot find a clear right/wrong, skillful/unskillful answer. I have no doubt that the Awakened can disarm the violence and threat of many enemies before things come to violence but most of us wander through the world simply reacting!
The best answer that I can find is that all violence has an effect on the person being violent so that restraint and measure are needed. To inflict death on another must remain a "no no" but will sometimes occur. Once it has, we have a hard path to follow because we will have acquired a psychic burden. Whether we see karma as affecting a string of lives or as simply an effect in this life, we are not going to 'shake it off'.
Choosing to learn and practise some form of 'martial art' is ceratinly skillful: it teaches more than just a set of physical movements but, in well-run schools of reputable traditions, will train the mind. Daily practice of mind and body becaome essential and we cease to react or abreact but become more aware.
3. Karmic debt:
Need I say more? The World-Honoured Buddha invites us onto the Noble Eightfold Path so that we cease to be the victims of karma, the curse of samsara.
BTW, I hear the Jesus call to metanoia as something similar.
One of the things about the bible is - it can be very confusing. In one scripture, you can read "an eye for an eye", in another "turn the other cheek" in another "thou shalt not kill" and yet in another about how God tells someone to go kill someone else (like in the Old Testament where certain types of people or peoples should be killed).
I'm a firm believer that you can construe just about anything you want out of the bible. People have been doing it for centuries.
Now for the Death Penalty - I have to say that I have never really been opposed to it. With some of the atrocious things people have done to other people - I have a hard time understanding why it is that they should continue living and we should continue supporting them to live (ie prison).
But, I know within myself that I could never be the person to say, "Yes, you must die." I don't think I have that ability for "judgement" within me.
I also do not trust our court systems to be able to judge anything honestly, truthfully or correctly. You see, people are involved with our court systems and people are the downfall of our court systems. Court proceeding are games - this attorney against that attorney. The winning of the case or the losing of the case. The money to be gained or the money to be lost.
I honestly feel that so much gets wrapped up in a case - that it becomes hard to actually focus on finding out the truth. So, I can't say that I've ever agreed with a court hearing that has pronounced the death penalty on someone and followed through with it. There is too much cause for mistakes. There are a lot of people in prison who never did what they are accused of.
So, outside of that, I've never put it in a Buddhist perspective. And, I've never been forced to. But, I don't think I could ever make that judgement against anyone. I also agree with what has been written - someone's death - anyone's death shouldn't be the cause for celebration. I think in the big scheme of things - if you celebrate someone's else death because you think it's justified or they deserve it - I think in the long run it's going to take it's toll on you. One day you will think back to what you did and I wonder how it will affect you.
I think that, if nothing else, if someone that dies under these circumstances - it should just end and that be it. I would hate to look back on an event like this and remember how I laughed, cheered, partied - etc., about the death of someone - the death of someone that might have been innocent.
Michael
actually, yes, at this point, i do believe in the death penalty. i can't lie. just because i'm starting on the path of Buddhism doesn't mean I've changed completely. i would be lying if I said otherwise.
If there is someone that brutally murders men, women or children - and we know 100% sure, without a doubt, that they did it - why keep them in a prison? why feed them? why provide them with shelter? why put them in a place where they will suffer even more? why even recognize their existance? Just kill them. Put them out of this world - out of the minds of the survivors - just get rid of them.
But, my problem is the making 100% sure given the circus of our judicial system. I have no faith in our current system - well, more accurately, the people that work within these circles. While humans have greed and goals - I think it's hard for someone to get a fair judgement.
Do you think I should change? Do you think if someone murders many, many people - do you think they should go free? Is there some Buddhist decree of what we should do with these people? Should we let them just go free to, hopefully, come to some karmic decision that they shouldn't do this anymore? I don't think they will do it. They may continue to just keep killing people - and why should all these other people suffer?
What are your thoughts?
Michael
I agree the judicial system has many flaws. Enough said on that point.
Ok. If we kill th ekiller does that cause the family any less pain? It may make them feel a little better but there loved one is still gone. The details of how it happenned are still burned into their mind. Wanting death on the killer is a form of hate. If you are Christian is it not your goal to become Christ-like? Would Jesus condemn this killer to death? I am not saying we let them go. Lock these people away so they cannot harm anyone else.
Buddhists believe that anyone who is part of killing another is Karmically responsible. That means if you vote on the death penalty and it is used to kill someone you are responsible in part for that person's death.
My mother was killed by a doctor 2 years ago. He messed up a simple procedure and she bled internally screaming my father's name, begging him to help her and screaming that she didn't want to die. My father had to watch all of this helpless to do anything about it. The thing is that the doctor who caused all of this went on vacation the day that my mother died. The hospital knew there was a problem with her and they didn't even have an IV in her or have her in ICU where they were supposed to have her. After all this I still do not wish the doctor dead who caused. He will get his by a higher power.
When you wish death onto others it takes away from you, not them.
Speaking as one trying to follow Buddha...
Why should we incarcerate(sp?) a killer. Are we not holding him/her behind bars against their will? Are we not causing them pain/sorrow/hurt "forcing" him/her to do something that they do not wish to do? How is it that it is okay to force some people to do things but karmically bad to force other people to do other things.
And being a Buddhist - what higher power is going to do anything about this? I would think (knowing as little as I do about Buddhism) isn't this person just doomed to be reincarnated again - just further away from "nirvana" than they were in this life? What if they aren't a Buddhist, don't belief these beliefs and in this life could really give a rats-butt about what they've done.
I'm truly sorry about the ordeal with your mother and hope that you find some peace in your memories of her. As for the doctor who did this - I feel he should be held accountable in some fashion.
Michael
Also... some people do find solice in knowing that someone who murdered their loved ones no longer has the ability to enjoy a summer day, a spring rain, love, life, food, drink, family, etc. - because they can no longer enjoy these things with the family member of theirs that has been killed.
So - not saying that it's right or wrong - but some people do find comfort in knowing that a person like this no longer walks this earth.
Michael
Those are the things I'm talking about - I don't know, in many respects, what is allowed and what isn't allowed.
It would make sense - I'm sure Buddhism allows for a person to protect themselves and their family. I can't imagine taking pacifism to the extreme where you just let some one kill you or your loved ones.
Thanks for the post.
Michael
P.S. As for the 9/11 thing - I guess I'm still too ignorant or unlearn-ed to think that the people that did this should pay. I don't believe that we should have invaded any country like we did. How many innocent civilians were killed during the invasion of Iraq? What good did it do? Where were all the weapons of mass destruction the government was pumping into the press?
Just like I don't think we should have invaded Kuwait when another country threatens the US's oil supply.
Why did it take us so long to send forces to break up the ethnic cleansing that was taking place between the Serbs and Croats. Are human lives that have no "oil" to offer the world of less import than others?
It isn't the "Muslim's" fault for killing "Christian Americans". It was that being's defilements, especially hatred and delusion, that caused them to kill others. They are doing what their defilememts tell them is "right", or "good", or "benefitial". Compassion is seeing that these poor people do not see their delusions, they do not see the harm they are actually causing. Same goes for a "Christian killing a Muslim", or a "pro-lifer killing an abortion doctor", or "me killing a pig for dinner". It's no different. None of us truly realizes the damage we are doing because of the defilements "veil of ignarance drapped over our eyes".
Buddhism try to remove this veil so that we may see clearly all of our actions and their results. We walk the Path to free ourselves from these greeds, aversions, and delusions. With clear vision we can help teach others to realize the same thing. This is, to me, the only way to change our world without force or violence.
Try to answer the questions honestly:
What can we gain from a death?
What do we learn? (We already know that people die.)
What does our vengence accomplish?
Will this act make a lasting/permanent result? (i.e. Will it stop others from commiting the same act?)
Why do I have the right to kill and the person I kill does not? (As in enforcing the death penalty.)
If you say,"I can put a murderer to death because I believe killing is wrong." then what makes your beliefs different and/or more correct than anothers?
It seems to be all a matter of perspective and perception. I believe the Buddha just tried to point this out for us.
Don't mean to be a smarty but I have to call out people who speak in such absolutes. Awhile back we had a discussion about "War never solved anything". The absolutes "never" and "anything" exclude 1945 and Hitler, respectively. We can say "War rarely solves things" and it would be difficult to argue. So how about "Killing is almost always wrong" or "Killing is wrong in all but a few extreme situations"?
I love being difficult.
What is really solved by war anyway? There are still genocides. In fact in Africa it is happening right now. There are still injustices. There are still crimes, murders, robberies, and rapes. If war truly solved anything and changed peoples views the world would be perfect by now after all the wars that have been fought. I don't see how killing or war makes this world better than it already is. That's my personal opinion anyway.
Who says I have to kill the person with the flame thrower? Also seeing that you are a Batman fan you should know there is always more than one way of doing things.
I am sorry if you misunderstood my question about those who master minded the 9-11 attack.
To me The death penalty is the ultimate wrong. For it is the most permanent of life. I feel that for the justice system in this country it is the fastest and easist road for them to understand.
All though I beleive that death in it's self is just a way to past on to another phase of understranding.
In my training as a shaman and buddist, I have come to understand that there are acutally many ways to die . With true death of the body being the ultimate. There is death in emotions, beliefs, Etc.
My Master once told me, that although we may die a thousand times in our life, there is but only one true death. And that should never be decided by another human being.
As for those who master-minded 9-11. Death would be to easy.
The precept says: Do not kill. It doesn't say "Don't die". The former is a decision that we can, by and large, take charge of. The latter is nonsense and the person being killed has no say in the matter.