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The good ol' koans
NomaDBuddha
Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
I have something to complain about these koans. Why, or, how am I able to solve them if I can't use logic ? I mean, all the advice on koans resume to 'not to use logic' stuff. How can this be possible ? How can I find an answer if I don't , or I am not 'allowed' to think about that answer ?
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Good question!
There is really no "not allowed" in Koan practice. Everything is allowed. Try using logic and see what happens.
However, proper Koan practice requires a teacher to give you a koan appropriate to your level of understanding, to receive your answers and tell you if you are correct or not.
I've tried that one and what is the sound of one hand clapping.
I had some interesting experiences.
Now, let's make some maths about this
Well, who gives a sh%t about this one?
Yeah, Yeah, that's the one
The same experience that a logger has when they cut down a tree and it falls.
I would assume so as as it was asked of me in an interview once (as well as the hand clapping one), but it's not found in the traditional principal collections like the Blue Cliff Record, Gateless Gate etc. It technically may not be an "official" one, but it is used as one by some teachers.
The one I'm currently working on now is this one. Feel free to offer suggestions as I have been stuck on it for quite a while!
You are hanging in a tree by your teeth
Your arms are bound and your legs are bound, you can't touch the tree.
A man with a gun appears under the tree and asks
Why did Bodidharma come to China?
If you don't answer, he will shoot you and you will die.
If you open your mouth to answer, you will fall from the tree and die.
How do you stay alive?
Body language ??
Or , let's say I don't answer him, but I have to find a way to get down the safely...Or, should I make the guy shoot me, balance myself so that the bullet hits the rope, freeing my arms and then try to climb the tree to its top ?
Or simply I answer : Mmmm, mmm mmmm!
A student asked Master Yun-Men, "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Without hesitation, the master answered, "Mount Sumeru!" Why did the master answer, "Mount Sumeru!"?
good luck with that one.
Having never done koan practice I have no idea what kind of answer is even being looked for. What first popped into my head is that Mount Sumeru is irrelevant as an answer which points to the irrelevance of sin. Sort of like answering 'What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?'
I am sure I am wrong, but that's just what popped into my head.
It's definitely a non-verbal answer because you are not allowed to open your mouth, literally. So any response that would involve words or talking is wrong. My teacher, as well as the other teachers, always gives the same hint. "You must 100% become one with the man in the tree!" Which does not really help, lol.
Very creative haha! But how to you tell that to the teacher without opening your mouth?!?!
It seems to me that this is the kind of Koan that any answer will do but only if you understand the answer first. So the particular answer is not important but the clear delivery of the answer is what is important. A good teacher can intuitively tell if you understand it or not, regardless of what answer you give.
If you understand the answer, I think you could correctly respond by saying "I have to take a shit!" or "You have a bald head!" or some other nonsense like that. Some require a very specific answer, this is not one of those I don' think. But then again, I could be wrong.
Sound requires something generating sound waves, a medium for sound waves to travel through (air), and ear of some sort, and a brain to comprehend and interpret "sound". If any one of these is missing there is no sound. Sound it not a "thing", but a phenomenon that manifests only under certain conditions.
If a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears connected to consciousness, it does not make a sound.
Similarly if a star goes supernova and explodes... despite what we've seen in movies, it will not make the slightest peep in space. No air = no medium for soundwaves to form or travel through.
I do really like the one "show me your original face before your parents were born" though. That one stops all conceptual thought in it's tracks for me.:cool:
That said, I would never attempt koan study without a teacher. I really think it is a necessity in this case.
One could say it has a logical answer, but is the logical answer the correct answer? Impossible to know without asking a teacher, IMO.
That's what I thought...
But I fully agree...koan work needs a teacher.
so says the Shin Buddhist...:rolleyes::o Like I would know
Agreed. However, If you die in this situation then you don't get to go on to the next Koan.
I tried a bunch of logical answers for that one, NONE of them worked.
It is the same predicament. If we remain silent our needs are not met and we are not expressing our natural sensitivity. But because of the natural presumptiveness and ego habits anything we say could be misunderstood and lead to further grasping at karma?
Its the same predicament as during the interview. If you say anything to the master it is just words. But if you say nothing that doesn't do either.
I don't think my answer would satisfy the koan either as it is just words too. Obviously there is nothing you can do when your arms and legs are bound and you are held to the tree by your mouth. Just get ready to be shot! Feel the dukkha fully and relax. Hope for rebirth in a land with shorter trees haha :P
This is very cool to me. Can you elaborate? How can I 'understand' the fact that he has a bald head anymore than looking at it and saying "You have a bald head!"??? I always kinda thought, when I was giving my answers, my teacher was looking for something like that. -Man, I just leaned back in my chair and busted out in laughter, I think I finally got it. Thanks alot Seeker242.
Cool! As far as your questions goes, if you understand why he said Mount Sumeru!, then you already know the answer.
P.S.:Well, today I thought that my mind got a little lazy, and if this is a thread about koans, are there any people who could give me one koan to 'digest' ?
How do you treat gypsies with kindness?
I treat many of them, at least those who are moderate and know how to speak correctly.
My face looked like everything and nothing at the same time. It looked like the vast space, that has no form...so this is the answer I stumbled upon during meditation.
So, do you have another one tha tI should start 'chewing' ?? Please
Without a teacher, it is best to find your own question. One that leaves you completely perplexed and dumbfounded. A question whose only answer can be "I don't know". And to simply contemplate it, but not necessarily to find an answer. The really big, intense questions are unanswerable with mere thoughts or words because they are just too big. If it can be answered by just thinking about it, then it is not a very good question. For example: what is this thing we call life? What is this thing that I see when I look in the mirror? What is a human being? What is this phenomenon we call the universe? What is this that I see and what is this that I'm seeing with? What is seeing? What is this phenomenon of seeing, hearing, thinking etc.
A good question that I like to use is "What is this?" With "this" referring to all of the above and everything else that exists, all a once, packed into this one question. What is this?! Contemplating such a big question sincerely, makes your mind go completely silent, which is the purpose of this type of practice.
Particular koans on the other hand do have specific answers, but if you don't have a teacher to check your answers, you will never be able to know if you got it right or not.
The example I've heard used was an egg that was trapped inside of a glass bottle, one must remove the egg without breaking the bottle or cracking the egg. A zen master gave this koan to one of his students who quickly became frustrated with it. He had meditated for days on the answer only to find it was still impossible, the zen master simply remarked that through the use of the koan the monk had cleared his mind of everything else.
1. I can't find them. These days, nothing seems to resonate with me.
2. Yeah, I found one, one that during a meditation session scared me and made me stop that session.