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Everything is karma

edited September 2010 in Buddhism Basics
right? Meaning there is nothing that could possibly happen to me which I did not cause to happen. And not only that but karma can also take place at a much smaller scale. Meaning that if I do something bad, or unskillful as is the better way of saying it, and then am taken over with feelings of guilt, i'm not feeling guilty cuz of my conscience or anything like that. Rather it's karma effecting me very quickly.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but it seems to be the most consistent understanding based on what i've read and using my own intellect.

Comments

  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I've heard it said that only an enlightened mind can understand karma. On the other hand I'd hate to discourage you if I am wrong.
  • edited September 2010
    shanyin wrote: »
    I've heard it said that only an enlightened mind can understand karma. On the other hand I'd hate to discourage you if I am wrong.

    I believe that enlightenment is possible in this lifetime. I'd like to say for anyone, but I will say that I believe that it's possible for me. That being said, I am humble in the fact that I don't have all the answers, but motivated in that I am in search of them.

    Also, i'm nowhere near fully understanding karma. Understanding anything is a process, my aim is to move towards understanding. I am nowhere near understanding how a given action will affect me etc, which I assume can be known by the enlightened.

    A quote from something i'm reading.
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad and experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha]...The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]...The results of kamma...Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad and experience vexation.
    [/FONT]
  • edited September 2010
    Everything is karma
    <hr style="color: rgb(192, 192, 192); background-color: rgb(192, 192, 192);" size="1"> right? Meaning there is nothing that could possibly happen to me which I did not cause to happen. And not only that but karma can also take place at a much smaller scale. Meaning that if I do something bad, or unskillful as is the better way of saying it, and then am taken over with feelings of guilt, i'm not feeling guilty cuz of my conscience or anything like that. Rather it's karma effecting me very quickly.

    I'm not 100% sure on this, but it seems to be the most consistent understanding based on what i've read and using my own intellect.

    Is that you, Bob?
  • edited September 2010
    Everything is karma
    <hr style="color: rgb(192, 192, 192); background-color: rgb(192, 192, 192);" size="1"> right? Meaning there is nothing that could possibly happen to me which I did not cause to happen. And not only that but karma can also take place at a much smaller scale. Meaning that if I do something bad, or unskillful as is the better way of saying it, and then am taken over with feelings of guilt, i'm not feeling guilty cuz of my conscience or anything like that. Rather it's karma effecting me very quickly.

    I'm not 100% sure on this, but it seems to be the most consistent understanding based on what i've read and using my own intellect.

    Is that you, Bob?

    no...idk what that means...lol
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited September 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    I believe that enlightenment is possible in this lifetime. I'd like to say for anyone, but I will say that I believe that it's possible for me. That being said, I am humble in the fact that I don't have all the answers, but motivated in that I am in search of them.

    Also, i'm nowhere near fully understanding karma. Understanding anything is a process, my aim is to move towards understanding. I am nowhere near understanding how a given action will affect me etc, which I assume can be known by the enlightened.

    A quote from something i'm reading.

    [/size][/font]

    "Meaning there is nothing that could possibly happen to me which I did not cause to happen"

    My approach would be this in finding out if you are correct would be practicing right understanding.

    From my book Buddha: His Life And Teachings, one way to practice right understanding is to 'know what is unwholesome karma, know what is wholesome karma'.

    I would agree with you I think guilt is sort of a quick karma.

    Happy trails.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    right? Meaning there is nothing that could possibly happen to me which I did not cause to happen. And not only that but karma can also take place at a much smaller scale. Meaning that if I do something bad, or unskillful as is the better way of saying it, and then am taken over with feelings of guilt, i'm not feeling guilty cuz of my conscience or anything like that. Rather it's karma effecting me very quickly.

    I'm not 100% sure on this, but it seems to be the most consistent understanding based on what i've read and using my own intellect.

    Not necessarily. While the basic premise behind kamma is that there's a cause and effect relationship between our actions and how they're experienced, the commentarial tradition of Theravada explicitly denies that everything is the result of kamma. According to them, there are at least five distinct causal laws or processes (panca-niyamas) that operate in the physical and mental worlds: seasonal laws (utu-niyama), biological laws (bija-niyama), psychological laws (citta-niyama), kammic laws (kamma-niyama) and natural laws (dhamma-niyama).
  • edited September 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    no...idk what that means...lol


    I have to apologize for begging off for tonight, but I'm unable to answer your question with the degree of comprehensiveness it deserves at the moment.

    I think this view of karma is far too mechanistic and too much this-for-that, when it's not as simple as that. And as far as you feeling guilty being karmic in nature, I would say yes and no to that. Yes, it's kind of cause-and-effect, but there is a real component to the emotion of guilt such that someone who does something unskillful should feel regret over it and own it as a real emotion and really take responsibility.

    We have a sometime poster named Bob who, in my opinion, has a far too mechanistic, this-for-that view of karma, and what in my opinion is an incorrect view of guilt from a Buddhist point of view- which is why I asked if this is actually Bob posting under another name... oh well...
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited September 2010
    In these discussions I usually defer to the Ken McLeod articles on Karma ... especially this one

    http://www.unfetteredmind.com/articles/explain.php

    warmest wishes
  • edited September 2010
    andyrobyn wrote: »
    In these discussions I usually defer to the Ken McLeod articles on Karma ... especially this one

    http://www.unfetteredmind.com/articles/explain.php

    warmest wishes

    I enjoyed reading that. Thanks
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I believe there was a Brahmanical tradition at the time of the Buddha who believed that kamma was something that we had no control over. They believed that everything that happens to us and everything we do is entirely the result of past kamma. All beings, according to this tradition, were believed to just keep reincarnating over and over again until they had the good karma to be born into a family where they could ordain in that tradition and become enlightened.

    I can't remember the name of this tradition, maybe someone like Jason knows what I'm talking about.
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Pema Chodron talks about karma as being imprints that we have set by all that we think and do. I see a similarity here with modern neurophysiology, in which we create engrams in our brain through a thought, emotion, or behavior, which we then reinforce through repetition, or just leave as it is.

    Performing an unskillful action sets or reinforces the imprint of that unskillful action. Guilt over an unskillful action reinforces the imprint of feeling guilt. Loving kindness sets an imprint of loving kindness. Imprints ripen when the conditions are right.
  • edited September 2010
    FoibleFull wrote: »
    Pema Chodron talks about karma as being imprints that we have set by all that we think and do. I see a similarity here with modern neurophysiology, in which we create engrams in our brain through a thought, emotion, or behavior, which we then reinforce through repetition, or just leave as it is.

    Performing an unskillful action sets or reinforces the imprint of that unskillful action. Guilt over an unskillful action reinforces the imprint of feeling guilt. Loving kindness sets an imprint of loving kindness. Imprints ripen when the conditions are right.

    I like that way of looking at it
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2010
    GuyC wrote: »
    I believe there was a Brahmanical tradition at the time of the Buddha who believed that kamma was something that we had no control over. They believed that everything that happens to us and everything we do is entirely the result of past kamma. All beings, according to this tradition, were believed to just keep reincarnating over and over again until they had the good karma to be born into a family where they could ordain in that tradition and become enlightened.

    I can't remember the name of this tradition, maybe someone like Jason knows what I'm talking about.

    During the Buddha's time, there were many different theories of kamma floating around, and the Buddha tackles quite a few of them throughout the suttas (e.g., AN 3.61, DN 2, etc.). What you're describing — the idea that everything we do or experience in the present is solely conditioned by past actions (i.e., the straight line theory of causality) — is actually how the Jain theory of kamma is portrayed in the Pali Canon (see MN 101).

    The Buddha, on the other hand, took the position that our experience of the present is conditioned by both past and present actions (i.e., the non-linear theory of causality). (It seems to me that the difference between Nigantha Nataputta's doctrine of kamma and the Buddha's doctrine of kamma is not unlike the difference between Democritus' atomism and Epicurus' atomism.)
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Thanks for that Jason. :)
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2010
    GuyC wrote: »
    Thanks for that Jason. :)

    No problem. :)
  • edited September 2010
    so the buddha's claim then was rather than every present action being determined and the present in complete grip of former causal events that are together the past, there is a dynamic influence creative of the course of events and fate and that dynamicism is the present, or where it's "STAGED", would you agree jason? and that karma is not following a deterministic course but operating creatively in the flow of phenomena BOUND IN TIME?
  • edited September 2010
    in theravada (I'm thai)



    "Everything is not karma"


    http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/ธรรมนิยาม




    According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (niyama) which operate in the physical and mental realms.



    They are:
    1. Utu Niyama- physical inorganic order, e.g. seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The unerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., all belong to this group.
    2. Bija Niyama - order of germs and seeds (physical organic order), e.g. rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar-cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.
    3. Karma Niyama - order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Karma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the sun and the moon.
    4. Dhamma Niyama- order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisattva in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature. The natural reason for being good and so forth, may be included in this group.
    5. Citta Niyama - order or mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, etc., including telepathy, telaesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading and such other psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science.
    Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Karma as such is only one of these five orders. Like all other natural laws they demand no lawgiver.






  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited September 2010
    so the buddha's claim then was rather than every present action being determined and the present in complete grip of former causal events that are together the past, there is a dynamic influence creative of the course of events and fate and that dynamicism is the present, or where it's "STAGED", would you agree jason? and that karma is not following a deterministic course but operating creatively in the flow of phenomena BOUND IN TIME?

    Yes, that is my understanding. Further, I have heard at least 3 monks/nun tell us that karma can be changed ... therefore it must be a fluid and dynamic phenomenon, as fully linked to the present moment as to the immediate past and the distant past.
  • edited September 2010
    i also heard karma can be changed
  • edited September 2010
    gsb8261 wrote: »
    i also heard karma can be changed

    Up above in this thread AndyRobyn posted this link http://www.unfetteredmind.com/articles/explain.php

    I am very grateful for it being posted as having read the information I believe my understanding of karma ripened a bit. I hope you will similarly benefit from it.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I read somewhere yesterday that you cannot "have" karma. Rather you DO karma. And it always ripens eventually. Karma is an action not a noun you could possess.
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited September 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    right? Meaning there is nothing that could possibly happen to me which I did not cause to happen.
    I don't believe that, I think that karma is intentional action, which has it's root in our mental state. Karmic fruit, both good and bad, return and affect the future formations of the mind, do good and the returns reinforce the benevolent aspects of yourself, do bad and the opposite happens.
    But our sphere of influence is limited, our actions cannot affect phenomena like the tectonic plates, or the path of asteroids through space. If we are involved in a natural disaster, it is simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
  • edited September 2010
    Chrysalid wrote: »
    I don't believe that, I think that karma is intentional action, which has it's root in our mental state. Karmic fruit, both good and bad, return and affect the future formations of the mind, do good and the returns reinforce the benevolent aspects of yourself, do bad and the opposite happens.
    But our sphere of influence is limited, our actions cannot affect phenomena like the tectonic plates, or the path of asteroids through space. If we are involved in a natural disaster, it is simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    I would say that it's most likely that, but it's possible you were there because of bad karma. Karma's incredibly complex, so it's definitely possible for it to put you in the wrong place at the wrong time. imo.
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited September 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    I would say that it's most likely that, but it's possible you were there because of bad karma. Karma's incredibly complex, so it's definitely possible for it to put you in the wrong place at the wrong time. imo.
    That's one take on it. But from my perspective that endows karma with magic-like qualities. That it somehow orchestrates your movements with an omniscient awareness of external phenomena, so that your physical location coincides with events that cause you good or harm in relation to past actions. I don't find that logical.
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