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Romantic love
Given the strong feelings of attachment involved in romantic love how does this fit in with buddhism today?
i see many people in relationships just for the emotional support, and i hear all those love songs - i could never live without you blah, blah, blah.
Seems the very opposite of 'be a refuge onto yourself'.
How about you? Has your buddhist (or otherwise) beliefs impacted upon any of your relationships?
i see many people in relationships just for the emotional support, and i hear all those love songs - i could never live without you blah, blah, blah.
Seems the very opposite of 'be a refuge onto yourself'.
How about you? Has your buddhist (or otherwise) beliefs impacted upon any of your relationships?
0
Comments
The only way you can love - truly Love - someone completely - with your Mind, Heart and Soul - is to love yourself that way first.
You have to Love, Accept and Respect who and what you are, first and foremost, in order to be able to love another the same way.
If not, the love is Conditional.
You 'love' someone with the desire and intention to be loved back - there are strings attached. "I'm going to love you so much - but I want you to love me back the same way." The relationship becomes either a tug-of-war, ie, both 'sides' wishing to exert control on the other, or Passive/Dominant, ie, one member is clearly stronger, the other one becomes docile, subservient and even a door-mat.
These are examples of blighted love - and I'm speaking from experience.
The relationship I have with Nick is so fulfilling and liberating that if I could just transmit to you one moment of the Joy it has brought me, it would last you a lifetime. And it's taken me the best part of thirty years to find it.
My Buddhist beliefs are always there. I know and understand the subject of impermanence, and attachment. But the Buddha didn't intend to say that 'ALL Life is suffering' and end it there. What he was pointing out, is that Life contains suffering. But there is also wonderful gladness and happiness to be found too. The trick is to not consider these conditons permanent. It is our attachment to our dualistic desire for permanence in 'Good' and IMpermanence in the 'Bad' that brings us the suffering. Release this constant undulating craving and Life - in all its glorious variety, is a Realm of Wonder and constant Discovery.
Because, after all, it is an attachment. Children become an attachment. Pretty soon those attachments will start causing a disrupttion in your path that you will need to deal with. I believe that's why we have nun and monks. People who remove these things from their daily lives so that they can more fully focus.
We even read of Siddartha leaving his wife and child in order to find "the truth".We don't read of Buddha trying to teach a lesson - but couldn't because he and the wife got into a spat last night and he had to sleep on the couch and, oh man!, was his back bugging him...
As a lay Buddhist - I believe that these attachments can also cause you more disruption in your life - but I believe they can be great life-lessons.
I know I've got a couple of "lessons" in my life that constantly bring me back to focusing on Buddha's teachings and applying them in my daily life.
And it's hard sometimes... But I've got plenty of useful material!
-bf
I have a DVD titled 'Samsara - To satisfy One Thousand Desires - or dominate just one?'
THis is a beautifully-made film, shot on location, about a young Tibetan monk who has been part of a closeted and isolated monastery, who completes his Tibetan three-year-three month-three-day retreat, but who, on emerging, decides that, if the Buddha had the experience of a normal Lay life before leaving his family, why should he not experience the same, in order to have a comparison of experiences? ("Do not accept any of my teachings before understanding them completely, from your own Point of View". The Buddha.)
So he leaves the monastery, finds a beautiful young woman to marry and has a son. He also succumbs to the unexpected experience of seduction at the hands of his wife's beautiful young helper, and is beset by the daily problems of Life as the lay person knows it. ("Sometimes, you need to turn away from something, in order to find it again in a better way.")
After many trials and tribulations, he finally decides to return to his monastery, but on seeing the gates to this lonely, isolated place, he is confronted by a vision of the young wife he has abandoned and left behind. This vision berates him for leaving - she begs the question:
"Having done everything you have done, do you think it now right to just leave us, and go as if nothing had happened? What of the Buddha's wife and child? How do you suppose they felt?"
He falls to the ground, completely desperate, and unable to either go forward or back..... ("All experiences help to find The Way.")
Life is beset with circumstances which will be a constant trial and challenge to us.Our only course of action is to do the best we can, with what we've got. Cause, Effect, Choice, Consequence.
Attach, then when it's finally over, remove the attachment. Just like death, love life, but when death comes, forget all about life...
Of course this may seem hard to do but you must continously tell yourself it will all "end" in a sense, but never dies. You promise love never dies, true, loves NEVER dies. Love lives on, in the hearts of the children you shall have, and in the memories of those who remember... In the letters you write, in the things you do... They might not be there anymore, but the love stays.
Love is the only thing in the world that is pernament. You and her one day are gonna die, but I can assure you the love stays. Who said that love must end in death? Has the past ended? No. Just as we are now, we are leaving the past. Upon death the love will carry on itself, it would be a memory, a fingerprint of this life, a karmic bond. Tell me this doesn't exist?
Everything in this world has effects, even though it might have been forgotten. You might very possibly been in your past lifes the first ape to walk down the trees. This walk is forever, even though you may not realize. The genetic memories, fingerprints, our ancestors' love, prominent memories, actions, all live on in US.
I hope you all get what I mean, it's a little confusing I know, but I'm not a wise teacher. It all ends, but never dies. Let the love live on, stop being so selfish. Don't hog love alone, let it live on in other forms.
It is "put down".
Do we ultimately have to face our difficulties alone or can we count on some support.
i've always tried to go it alone, and i don't regret it - but now i'm wondering there might be situations where you could use somebody elses strength.
Ajani, i must say that sounds extremely difficult but very appealing. Does it not backfire sometimes?
But I think the rest should be possible... The philosophy of most atheists is well, "Enjoy while it lasts."... I think it shudn't be that hard to do... I have got a few examples where I adopted this strategy well but I think they aren't so big deeds to be mentioned in my post... Mostly computer stuff...
The essence in romantic love here is how you can NOT LIE and still SWEAR NEVER-ENDING STUFF... Well it will mostly lie on what you define the "end" as... Like the Universe that has no beginning, so you cannot effectively say the Universe has begun... Thus for stuff like this it's the same... It always "existed" to speak and will always exist, only in different forms...
Anyway although I'm a total noob at love, I think there are other ways to be romantic other than swearing never-ending love... Like well, "Climb high mountains for you, jump into hot cauldrons for you" and stuff like that... I know I suck at romance, for this you must ask Argon, he's well-versed in the art of romance... Though sometimes I think I shrivel up at his mushy poems I must admit... :eekblue:
Anyway why do you need never-ending love if you are gonna die so early before that to bask in it?
I believe friendship is there for this :rocker:
And the Sangha, which is why it is one of the Jewels of Refuge.
I believe I do not want to be regconised in someone as "well-versed in romance".To me,when I write all this stuff,you don't write with the purpose of making the other party happy.You write with your whole heart.Its useless to compose a whole long fantastically romantic and mushy poems just to make the other party happy,when deep inside you don't really mean it in your heart.
Love is there to remind us that we are not alone in our world.Being with someone you love,you tend to share your problems.So its like diving your total problems into two.
Lets input maths into this equation.
Let x be my problems,y be her problems.
So,x + y is of course less than x + y
2
And to Ajani,There is a difference between those you love and those you are your friends.You may love your friends but they might not love you to the same extent.Wherereas in a relationship,you love each other.
Take me for example,I lost two blood frineds which I had for two years.Now they have become complete enemies.You see for yourself from how they attempt to disrupt my life.I assure you,it will reach a point where physical violence will suffice them.
No matter how hard we may try, it is completely impossible to go it alone. Because it is completely impossible to 'go it alone'. Let me give you an example:
You decide that you're going to be completely independent, not rely on anyone or anything for support, companionship or comfort. OK? That's fine. That's it then. Mr (Or Mrs...)Completely Independent.
Stop.
What are you wearing?
Let's say you're wearing.... a check lumberjack shirt, to start with. It's pure cotton. So who cut the fabric & put it together? Who checked it, folded it and put it into the cellophane pack ready for wholesale? Who bought that shirt for their store? Who loaded it into the truck? Who drove the truck? Who laid the tarmac of the road the truck is on? Who made dinner for whomsoever laid the road...? And who grew the cotton for the shirt to be made? And who employs who grew the cotton?
We are all inextricably interconnected.... wouldn't it be great to find ALL these people, and tell them - "Hey! This is the shirt I'm wearing - and you all had a hand in getting it to me!"
In the same way as trying to learn of all things spiritual; I have not had one single fixed 'Master' who has guided and taught me the things I have learned.... but I've had literally thousands! So many people ask if it's necessary to find a Master; they get responses like 'When the Student is ready, the Master will appear...' Well, D'huh!! Look around you!! If you ever need somebody's strength, sometimes, just sitting in a park, watching the kids play, watching Mums chattering idly by, watching pigeons saunter along the grass looking for anything to eat.... sometimes, it helps to know that, if you look hard enough, then just below the surface, we're all interconnected....maybe that lady over there is the wife of the guy who drives the truck....!
This exercise to me is often of great solace, if I need reminding that I don't have to do all this 'On My Own'.
If I ever feel so wrapped up in my own problems, that I just need to put things into perspective, and to re-connect....Everybody is out there.... connected....;
Palzang
Maybe this is why we go through this cycle.Take relationships or example.We go through a relationship that say last for one year.Through that period,we learn lessons,how to deal with problems arising from relationships.
So the next time we have another relationship,we implement what we learn and in the process the cycle repeats itself.This relatonship then lasts longer.
Thiis is just my peronal opinion.
Palzang
Ah... Here's something... Do you consider these erm.. things as sentinent beings?
"'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman."
"Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?"
"'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman."
"Then is everything a Oneness?"
"'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman."
"Then is everything a Manyness?"
"'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
"Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
- Lokayatika Sutta: SN XII.48
Do you? Here's a biological definition of sentience: "responsive to or conscious of sense impressions." Now, an ameba does respond to its environment. For example, some amebas will encapsulate when the environment becomes too hostile, such as freezing over the pond the ameba lives in. It can stay in this state for years until the environment becomes more friendly. It can also sense and move towards food. I'd say that makes it sentient by that definition, wouldn't you? A flu virus is much more problematic. It's certainly not at all clear that they even can be considered alive since they have no metabolic functions, no organelles, and are just basically membrane enclosed DNA or RNA (depending on the type). However, I know some people who consider not only plants but crystals to be sentient. So who can say? And what about the insentient? Hmmm...
Palzang
That's fine, you don't have to believe in past or future lives if you don't want to. However, that won't prevent you from taking rebirth countless times, nor is it what the Buddha taught.
Palzang
May I have the pleasure of introducing you to the 'Cellborg'!
Jason
I'll PM you my address, Fede.: dark chocolate, scented roses and the Widow would be appreciated.
Do you think a guy who tries very hard to be romantic, but can't, or when his friend rejects all attempts for him to be romantic, should be stoned to death?
.....You've lost me on "the Widow" bit.....!
the Blessed One spoke thus: "If, householders, both wife and husband wish to be in one another's sight so long as this life lasts and in the future life as well, they should have the same faith, the same moral discipline, the same generosity, the same wisdom; then they will be in one another's sight so long as this life lasts and in the future life as well."
When both are faithful and generous,
Self-restrained, of righteous living,
They come together as husband and wife
Full of love for each other
Many blessings come their way,
They dwell together in happiness,
Their enemies are left dejected,
When both are equal in virtue.
Having lived by Dhamma in this world,
The same in virtue and observance,
They rejoice after death in the deva-world,
Enjoying abundant happiness.
(AN 4:55; II 61-62)
so what we refer to as "true love" or "love everlasting" is possible but "it takes two to tango" so to speak. two loves bound to one another "forever" as long as both loves are pure and honest and respectfull.
Simon - I don't know why, but this popped in my head...
Did you ever see "The Last Temptation of Christ"?
Besides having a very cool soundtrack, it caused a lot of ruckuss here in the US. People were very offended that anyone would stoop so low as to evening thinking about Jesus getting "his freak on". Lot of people had a lot of trouble with this.
I know this is a little off the subject, but I always found it fascinating how, in the story of Christ, this person was supposed to have come down to Earth to go through all the trials, tribulations, feelings, etc that we humans are supposed to deal with - yet, many Christians would roll over in their graves by the thought that Jesus might have masterbated as a youth? As an adult? Thought about what it would be like to get something going with that hot Jewish girl at the market? Thoughts about having sex. A wife. Children. Grandchildren.
When I was a Christian, I always hoped that he would have done these things. How else is he going to know what it's like to go through all the temptations and issues humans have?
Sorry - very off-topic. But your last statement made me think about this.
If you haven't seen it - great show.
-bf
Here is a little dirty Buddhist humour that I thought would be appropriate for this thread. I hope no one is offended...
Hehehe...ok, now this post arose from a conversation between my girlfriend and I about the five aggregates. She was at school finishing up a film project, and we were talking on AIM. I sent her a post that I had just written to give her something to do while her project was rendering. It basically dealt with the five aggregates of mind and body. She had asked me what the five aggregates were (she's not Buddhist), and so I sent her a list of them with a brief description about each. Here is her exact response:
"Well shit, I physically love your rupa, I suppose it is my vinnana that loves your rupa because it is because of the vinnana that I know of/about your body (I behold an object--your body), you sure do appeal to my vedana, whether it is your vinnana or your rupa, and therefore my sankhara are usually an attempt to appease my vinnana, pleasing my vedana, yet my sanna realizes that this long sentence makes no sense and that I should stop."
Jason
BF,
I love the book and I have the video of the film yet to be watched!
When I was a churchgoer, I used to get a lot of trouble because I suggested that Jesus' humanity, to be total, had to include all the emotions and all the temptations. I used to point out that a man in his thirties was middle-aged, then if not now. This was not some callow youth and who had faced all that life in an occupied nation has to throw at us.
hahahah jay, i love your rupa too
I know a perfect way to ruin the integrity of any system. Just tell people that they may not love those whom they can't help but love.
Namaskaras,
Nirvana
---
This is a very good article on the subject; however, it is written by a yoga teacher, so I'm not sure if it will provide the answers you are looking for from a Buddhist approach. Personally, I think it applies, but that's me ...
..just my 2 cents..
I thought, naiively, that if you loved someone, you loved them all the time, you were aware of both your impermanence in this world and you showed them how important they are to you every day. I may be wrong because I have watched a series of people on TV getting their hair off at their partners because said partner didn't go and fill the coffers of card, flower or chocolate sellers.
On the radio this morning an ecologist was pleading with people to stop the 13 million pound trade on this one day that encourages florists to import flowers from all over the world to satisfy the demand.
And before you ask, yes, I am a cantankerous, grumpy old fart who feels the same about Mothers' Day, Fathers' Day, Grandmas' Day, Grandpas' Day, Appreciate Your Secretary Day, Christmas and any other day that has been declared "Commerce Fest" .... go on, break out, be different, practice unsuspected spoiling on your beloved and cheat the system!
Valentine's Day-wasn't it all about some dude that killed himself? Whatever.
Birthday's-Aren't they designed to celebrate that you've managed to have not died for the year? (Hey, but I like presents-yea love those!)
Excellent point Harlan - so in that case let's declare it Compassion Day and forget the commercialism. It's a great idea! No one feels left out because they didn't get a card and everyone feels included - we could all carry a large cardboard heart and wave it at everyone we see - it could get as popular as Red Nose Day in the UK.
Brilliant!
Practise
Random
Acts of
Kindness
Wear badges (money goes to charity) and just do things spontaneously for other people, with no desire for reward except to put a smile on somebody's face.
PRAK away!"
-bf
It's all so very wonderful, two people in love with each other, forbearing each other's little trifles and faults and remaining loyal to each other over the years and energizing each other and all that. I envy THAT! Wilhelm Reich taught that the "kingdom of heaven is bodily love." I've always thought that was somehow straight-on to the truth. It's funny how all the old monks in their Christian monasteries sing so much from The Song of Songs, a love poem.
Back to Reich, though, I think I'd have as a caveat that the relationship be monagamous, for simplicity's sake. I mean, if two people can truly be secure in their love-making ectasies with one another, their lovemaking would be an excellent metaphor for that highest state of bliss. --Even if it's serial monagamy. I mean, why should lay people have to take religious vows?
I heard something on National Public Radio a few months back about a couple who left their previous spouses just to be together. They had found a perfect "match," at once trebly physically, emotionally, and intellectually stimulating. It would have been cruel to have them live out the entirety of their lives in a lie, knowing that they had mated with the wrong partner. AnyWho, I found this couple's reminiscences disarmingly charming and (blush) inspiring.
Would I were so Lucky!
Nirvana
But Yogamama, flowers are good! You should have fresh flowers every couple of weeks. You deserve it. We all do. There's a saying (I think it's from the Bible but I pretend it's from the Dutch who grow the most magnificent flowers in the world) that goes "If you only have 2 pennies (or whatever), spend one penny on bread for the body and one penny on hyacinths for the soul (or whatever)".
Having fresh flowers in your home is the most wonderful feeling in the world. And the fact that they don't last forever is not only the reason why they're precious, but an excellent reminder of the impermanent nature of all conditioned things. They make you slow down and live in the moment. They're beautiful, uplifting, and wondrous manifestations of life. We all deserve to bask in the warmth of their beauty. There is also a revered form of Japanese floral design called Ichebana which I notice is being exhibited at the White Wind Zen Community temple in many cities across North America. I think it may be considered a form of Zen Buddhist art.
If you're worried about the cost of flowers at holiday times, don't buy roses, for example, at Valentine's Day. The growers in South America and the distributors charge the florists, which are all small businesses, an exorbitant amount of money for them and for many small, family owned businesses this is a make or break situation. The rise in the price is not the florist's fault, it's the grower's. Buy tulips at Valentine's. They'll still be a little more expensive because of the holiday, but MUCH less expensive than long stemmed roses, and tulips are in season right now. Buying flowers that are in season is one way to cut down on their expense. Or wait until holidays are over to buy flowers. You can get a beautiful bunch of fresh cut flowers for as little as $15.
(My vested interest in the topic of flowers ended 10 years ago when we lost our flower shop. We were the oldest family owned florist in North America, the business being established by my great great grandfather in 1851. But having grown up in the industry and having worked for nearly 18 years as a designer, my appreciation for flowers of all kinds grew every day that I enjoyed the privilege of working with them.)
Flowers are good!
Love,
Brigid
I've always preferred live flowers, and eschewed cut ones. It goes way back to my childhood. We were literally 'dirt poor', and the yard I was contained to between buildings was a grassless pit. However, the neighbors owned their home and behind their fence they grew the most beautiful flowers. A child's study...I learned early to simply appreciate things as they are...learning to be without taking...without plucking.
Until recently, cut flowers to me were an anethema. But now, as I watch a bouquet of roses slowly fail over several days, it has become a study of impermanence. Me and the flowers....constantly changing states.