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Alternative to Cyclic existence
<style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }</style> Hello there everyone,
Upon continuing my readings into Buddhism I have heard many times over about how the ultimate goal is to become free of cyclic existence which simply means the continuation of the mind stream in a animal/human that is set up for pervasive suffering which cannot be complete removed such as death and illness etc. Most other suffering is clearly mind made though and can be removed which can bring a huge amount of inner peace but suffering of course can still and will show its face but how its handled and viewed changes how it affects you. What is the alternative to cyclic existence? My first naïve though maybe is simply floating as a pure energy somewhere as raw consciousness that does not link up with a mind/body complex.
Going under this kind of thinking, It made me wonder how this is better? There are many great aspects of being born into human life more so when chronic stress/health issues are not present and you live with your needs being met which is not the case for many for sure but if we ever get to a utopia of fairness and equality like Star trek in which there is no money system and everyone has access to their core needs then surly it would not be so bad. There are so many things we can do in this life if what I just said is given which has made me appreciate what I have so much more than before; I simply am so fortunate to live in the EU which many of its great things such as free health and school as well as safety and working condition rights which would have been thought of as crazy talk 100 odd years ago. I am alive at such a time with huge freedom to do what you want which the possibilities of learning so much through the internet and other things. We are privileged to be alive during this era where you can write an opposing theory to something and not fear death etc.
Thinking about all of these things makes me appreciate and love being alive but I am well aware of the suffering that could be around the corner and the suffering that impacts so many but is the alternative better? Can you love someone and experience life? I often feel that living in the real world rather than being a monastic is much better as it gives you a chance to apply Buddhism on the front lines and truly try to make a difference in the world. I feel that a monastic way of life is akin to practising firing gun on a training ground and then real life is using them in a war where nothing can prepare you or improve your skills more.
That's enough anyway, thoughts?
Upon continuing my readings into Buddhism I have heard many times over about how the ultimate goal is to become free of cyclic existence which simply means the continuation of the mind stream in a animal/human that is set up for pervasive suffering which cannot be complete removed such as death and illness etc. Most other suffering is clearly mind made though and can be removed which can bring a huge amount of inner peace but suffering of course can still and will show its face but how its handled and viewed changes how it affects you. What is the alternative to cyclic existence? My first naïve though maybe is simply floating as a pure energy somewhere as raw consciousness that does not link up with a mind/body complex.
Going under this kind of thinking, It made me wonder how this is better? There are many great aspects of being born into human life more so when chronic stress/health issues are not present and you live with your needs being met which is not the case for many for sure but if we ever get to a utopia of fairness and equality like Star trek in which there is no money system and everyone has access to their core needs then surly it would not be so bad. There are so many things we can do in this life if what I just said is given which has made me appreciate what I have so much more than before; I simply am so fortunate to live in the EU which many of its great things such as free health and school as well as safety and working condition rights which would have been thought of as crazy talk 100 odd years ago. I am alive at such a time with huge freedom to do what you want which the possibilities of learning so much through the internet and other things. We are privileged to be alive during this era where you can write an opposing theory to something and not fear death etc.
Thinking about all of these things makes me appreciate and love being alive but I am well aware of the suffering that could be around the corner and the suffering that impacts so many but is the alternative better? Can you love someone and experience life? I often feel that living in the real world rather than being a monastic is much better as it gives you a chance to apply Buddhism on the front lines and truly try to make a difference in the world. I feel that a monastic way of life is akin to practising firing gun on a training ground and then real life is using them in a war where nothing can prepare you or improve your skills more.
That's enough anyway, thoughts?
0
Comments
Accoring to the Suttas, even consciousness is anicca (impermanent), dukkha (unsatisfactory/suffering), anatta (not-self). Nibbana, as far as I know, has nothing to do with the 5 aggregates (form, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness). Having not realized Nibbana, I cannot say for sure.
You are right, it wouldn't be so bad. If everyone on Earth kept the five precepts I imagine it would be like living in a heaven realm. Even so, there would still be birth, aging, sickness and death. It is still impermanent.
These are all wonderful things. It is a great time to be alive (for those of us who aren't living in poverty or a war zone, etc.)...But even these good, pleasant, comfortable conditions we are experiencing now are impermanent. It is only a matter of time before living conditions in our favourite country deteriorates, and if there is a WWIII or similar, it could be sooner than we might like to think. I am not saying that I think this is likely, but conditions are conditions and they are all impermanent, unstable, insecure, not-self. What will tomorrow bring? Who knows.
My opinion is that we should take advantage of such good living conditions to practice Dhamma to the best of our ability while the opportunity is available. I don't know if you believe in rebirth or not, but if rebirth is true then there is no telling where we might be born next, if we take an unfortunate rebirth the opportunity to practice Dhamma might not be available again for a long long time.
The alternative to what? Suffering?
The Buddha said that "what the ordinary worldlings call happiness, the Awakened Ones call suffering. What the ordinary worldlings call suffering, the Awakened Ones call happiness". Delusion makes us view everything the wrong way around.
I take this one on a combination of personal experience and faith in the Buddha and the Dhamma. My experience has not been the complete cessation of suffering, but the more I practice the Path, the more stress-free my life becomes, the happier I become. This limited experience is the basis for my faith. I have faith that what the Buddha declares is suffering actually is suffering and that there is the possibility to end suffering completely. Without faith (at least to some degree) it is impossible to practice.
Yes. But we should remember that romantic love, no matter how intoxicating it may be, is still impermanent. Metta for all beings is much more refined and pure, in my opinion.
First of all: To imply that monastic life is something other than "real life" is to miss the point of Dhamma practice. The frontlines are in your mind, no where else.
Secondly: I disagree with this analogy. Many people believe that the monastic life is ideal for Dhamma practice. Especially if you are surrounded by other monks/nuns who are as dedicated as you are. If you want to use the war analogy (although considering monks are training for the opposite, I think this is a bad choice of analogies) you could say it is like joining a military unit, the enemies are the defilements. You could be looking in one direction and then one of your comrades facing the other way could say "hey, look out behind you, there is greed/hatred/delusion!"
With Metta,
Guy
To know what the alternative is I guess is unknowable in many ways, the main point of my thread however was that I am in an early stage of learning about Buddhism and I am choosing to test it thoroughly without blindly believeing or getting caught up in the religion side of it (The trappings of clothing/paryers/chants etc) I agree with the Dalai Lama that this is secondary and in my opinion not neccesary for everyone.
See this underscores the main point of my topic also, more so with comparing cyclic to the opposite. My open question and thought right now is simply that do I want to be just energy or whatever is left if you are out of cyclic experiance, I cannot say it is better or worse as I have not experianced it but still, As I mentioned I completely understand about suffering that cannot be taken away as you said but life is clearly what you make it and is your own reality depending on how you view it. I am currently in the thinking that I love this opportunity to embrace life on this planet which gives so many countless experiances with people and learning and fun. This is certainly tinged with impermanence but if I know that then its not so bad. I enjoy what is and when there is pain, the fact things are transient means I know it cannot last. So much suffering comes from your own making and Buddhism has helped address this for me hugely. I feel connected with others at that essential same level and look into people deeply now rather than superficially. It really has changed me and I am incredibly greatful.
The last responce is similiar to this I guess, I know that there is suffering and things can change but its how you relate to that and how you use your life that matters, The point I am making still is that is the alternative better? In some cases of terrible suffering then maybe so, as to rebirth; I entertain the idea right now and believe it is possible for sure. I am reading a book on rebirth currently as it happens. I feel even if it is not true then it still has no bearings on how I am using Buddhism right now, it is of huge help and the Dalai Lama saying that if science proved rebirth was not possible then he would have to have it removed from Buddhism really does impress me and the openness and core value of Buddhism in seeking truth.
I don't believe we are always suffering though, There is always the chance of suffering but to me I feel that for example, loving someone and having a partner has its problems but ultimatly the affection and true love one can feel outweighs the certain disagreements you have etc, so maybe I am applying that to my current life. I withstand the possible suffering and always present subtle suffering to enjoy the experiance of life.
I agree that romance and love can be temporary in the sense you are discussing, but even this love for all beings is being enacted in cyclic existence, to feel someone hug you or for you to genuingly hug another being is an experiance I only know to be found in this life.
I disagree on one level and however completely agree that the frontlines is in your head, I personally however feel there is far more experiance in life by living out there with fellow human beings and making change rather than meditating and having no impact on humans, the Dalai lama himself has said how he has liked what christians have done; building schools etc something which Buddhism in the past has not done. Please do not infer that I regard monastics as wrong or right as we both know that is simply a viewpoint. I am just stating that in my personal view that applying buddhism daily in real life (Yeah I know why you said what you did about mind when I said that) in terms of living with the world and taking part in it fully is both challenging/fun/sad/ and homes in your compassion and skills nicely. This said, Meditation and monastic way of life is clearly a personal choice and this can clearly be great too, I just want you to understand what I meant by my comment
I deliberatly used the war analogy to see if it would stir a responce about it being a bad example which come to pass as I thought it might, it just to me showed what I meant in practical terms, book training and experiance are both needed. I feel practical can be greatly achieved by living in the hectic lovely, crazy, beautiful and mad world of today.
Thanks for your responce, I appreciated it greatly
Chris
No problem.
Very good, this is very much in the spirit of Dhamma practice.
By practicing the Buddhist path, if it leads to a gradual increase of happiness/decrease of suffering then you are practicing well and questions like "is Nibbana better than cyclic existence?" will drop away.
Also, an understanding of Anatta (not-self) should help clarify things. We think that the body and the mind are who we really are. But these are both impermanent, constantly changing without our control. The aggregates (body and mind) are not "me", "mine" or "myself". It is only because we identify with the body and/or the mind that we ask questions like "will I be consciousness or pure energy if I attain Nibbana".
No 'self' attains Nibbana. Lkewise no 'self' can be found in the body or the mind. There is a sense of self, but the sense of self is derived from putting an idea of permanence (self/soul/atman/atta) onto impermanent phenomena (body/mind).
Good.
Agreed.
I am glad that your experience with Buddhism has been helpful to you. I wonder if the Dalai Lama said what he said because he knows that it is impossible to disprove rebirth. In any case, I agree.
As long as we are not yet enlightened, the seeds of suffering are always in our mind. It is true, we are not always in a state of suffering. Sometimes, during a meditation retreat for example, the mind can become so peaceful that it may even resemble (temporarily) what an enlightened mind is like. But then the retreat is over and you go back and still say stupid things, still get frustrated, still get restless and you realize "oh, I still have work to do"...or at least this has been my experience.
Right, even Metta is enacted in cyclic existence. The difference is that Metta is a useful tool in leading towards liberation, whereas other forms of what we usually call "love" are often leading away from liberation.
The monks I know spend a lot of time meditating but also spend a lot of time interacting with the lay community. Even when they go on meditation retreats they are having a huge impact on other humans. By spending the time in seclusion their minds become more and more powerful, then they can use their heightened faculties to teach Dhamma more effectively than they did before. This is incredibly compassionate.
Even if someone is a lousy meditator, at least they aren't harming anyone during the period of time they spend meditating.
Building schools is good. Giving to charity is good. Giving monks and nuns their requisites is very good. But the very best thing that can be done is to practice the Noble Eightfold Path. This is the most compassionate thing we can do for ourselves and others.
With Metta,
Guy
Hi Atlant3an , i'm sure many people had the same queries as you. What is cyclic existence and what is the result of the Buddhist path. Cyclic existence is not a place, it is not emotion or thought or phenomenon per se. It is our deluded way of clinging to all these and identifying totally with them... as a result our suffering arises, we become selfish and create severe karma which leads to further cycles of suffering and repayment of karmic debts etc.
When enlightenment occurs, we will not be some disembodied energy floating somewhere... we are still as we are, but the identification stops and there is no more delusion and we can see the whole of life as a play, a dream, an illusion. This effectively stops all fear of death, suffering etc. There is no-one there to suffer or die.
For people who had not seen suffering or experienced deep suffering, it is hard to understand why Buddhism talks so much about suffering and its causes and the path to nirvana... ie the 4 noble truths. It is not something theoretical. When one is in the throes of suffering and see no end to it for lives after lives... then you would understand the need for some way of addressing it. The resolve for enlightenment would then arise.
Sometimes, due to our lack of experience, we have some difficulties understanding the need for a path to liberation. But look at your present experiences of emotions, all your comforts, all the things you hold dear to you, love, relationships, health, mobility, youth, money... know that one day they too will be taken away. What will be left then? There is suffering that arises just from a visualisation of impermanence in this way, not to mention have it happen in actuality.
Anything that is giving meaning to your life now, is it permanent? Do you think it will forever be giving your joy and meaning? Ask these questions and you will see the futility of most of what we hold dear to us now. That itself is a characteristic of samsara, the sense of hopelessness no matter where you turn...
I was trying to see rebirth and cyclic existence from a science stand point so I could actually possibly understand how it works etc. I was thinking that maybe consciousness is seperate out there and that it links with the mind/body of certain creatures. The fact that the brain reached a certain point of evolution allowed this to be so or at least within us enables us to realise we can be self aware. I then thought that when you die that this connection is broken but the consciousness remains and when a new person is born, somehow part of the consciousness is transfered maybe of one or two people actually as its not a perfect 1:1 fit. This is why many kids only recall fragments of previous lives and not things you think they would do for the most part. Upon thinking this, cause and effect made sense to be to occur in this consciousness and conditioned behaviour can remain in the consciousness.
I thought that the release from cyclic meant that you know longer link into a body but I could never understand why that is the case, like a simple idea being that the more heavier the consciousness, then it sinks down into the physical realm etc. This to me as I am writing all of this sounds absurd but the fact inorganic matter turned into organic matter that is self aware and writing about itself seems hilariously unbelievable too, infact when ever people say anything to me like; cmon thats impossible, I always think to myself, look at US and what we have DONE, not bad for inorganic matter as the theory goes in science. I really don't know what to think now as I don't think it can ever be proven anyway but the core buddhist philosophy and way of thinking has clear cut benefits and I will stick to this for now
Regarding consciousness and not-self, I recommend you download "Words of The Buddha" and read the chapters on the First Noble Truth and the Second Noble Truth. Hopefully this will clarify things a bit.
If you need any further clarification on what all the above means, please listen to these talks by Ajahn Brahm: First Noble Truth and Second Noble Truth.
It seems that by practicing the Path there is more and more happiness and less and less suffering. Presumably an Arahant (fully Enlightened One) has no more afflictive emotions, they still have the pains in the body but their mind is pure. This is called "kilesa parinibbana". "Kilesa" means "defilements". "Pari" means "complete". "Nibbana" means "extinguish". Therefore it means "the complete extinguishing of the defilements". Once an Arahant dies then their physical pain is done with forever too, there is no more rebirth. This is called "an-upadisesa-nibbana" which means "Nibbana without any remainder".
Palzang
Palzang
I think this is true for many things and people yes, including myself in the past for sure. However, I now strive to learn and understand merely because I am on this incredibly planet with such lucky circumstances that I can use to learn, learn and learn. I want to know how things work and when I am proven wrong on a theory, It does not bother me as I am not attached to a viewpoint, only to truth. I think we are naturally curious creatures. To many people have confirmation bias and are guarding their viewpoints using emotions as they feel they are being personally attached rather than that their viewpoint which should be fluid is being challenged and not the non-findable you that you create. When you create technology and advancements for the right reasons, then there is no problem. The atom bomb was created with brilliant skill but look at the reasons and what it will/did do.
You are right about it hindering your path sometimes though as you over analyze and fail to see the simple truths that are standing right in front of you.