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Is Buddhism neutrality, or positivity?

edited November 2010 in Buddhism Basics
So this is my first post, and I'll give a little history on how I came to eastern philosophy..

This part isn't relevant to the OP directly so feel free to disregard it:

I was raised a Christian, and then when I was 13 made a contious choice to 'follow Christ'..

However, through my experiences, I started noticing a pattern, the 'bad' kids had more compassion than the 'good' kids, Christianity and western theism was backwards, and was almost the polar opposite of what 'Jesus' taught.


This led me to reject religion.


I went on learning and contemplating and eventually gave up on looking outside, for a seperate God or something, or looking for salvation from a 'hell' that would be after death. These concepts just didn't make sense to me and seem primative.


Instead of looking without I began to look within, because I understand that material things dont bring happiness.


I could say I turned to eastern worldview, but Id rather say I turned inward, to myself, and to reality/nature. Buddhism/Taoism and other eastern beliefs and philosophies are just moreso in accord with what I believe than western/material, and I don't 'follow them' but instead follow myself and use eastern thinking as a way to help find myself more. (I also suffer from 2 anxiety disorders and that was another push in this direction)


Anxiety is tough, because I realize that my fears are irrational, but they still exist, and my thought pattern remains irrational despite my knowledge. (It is improving day by day though)

Can meditation help this? and is there a certain kind of meditation directed to it.
Oh, by the way, on top of that I have ADHD, so I find it hard to concentrate in meditation. xD



Now that thats out of the way..

I enjoy feeling positive, and having diversity in my life, and I am afraid that if I rid myself of all desire it will hinder my relationships and life, and that it will be a state of neutrality or nothingness, rather than one of positivity.

I understand that positive cannot exist without negative, so if you get rid of negative does that not get rid of positive? This leaves me very confused.

If you lose desire don't you lose purpose? I mean I enjoy the company of people, and music, I feel it is my purpose in life to have friends, have a family, help help people out, and persue music. But if I didn't desire to do these things wouldnt I just be not doing them, yet happy? I mean if I'm happy I'm happy, but I don't think happiness is everything. Like the saying "gain the world but lose your soul" maybe id be extemely content, but would I lose my purpose?
-Like what about the desire for the well being of my family, or the desire to work toward peace?

I am a social person, I love hangin out with people, but I am worried that if I no longer worry what people think about me, my social skills will be damaged.

thanks for ur time,
peace out!

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Desire feels bad. Because you grab for your security and it fails you. Like you drink 12 beers to get off anxiety. And wake up you did something wrong. You said something wrong you puked on something and you feel awful.

    But sensitivity is not desire. You can have a good feeling. Like looking out the window. Ew look at the view its amazing.

    The grasping for a good view can be dissapointing but the openness to experience and sensing experience feels good.

    In mahayana this is part of the buddha nature. Feeling and Clarity at union with space or so called emptiness.

    I started by saying desire feels bad. But it is the buddha nature and sensitivity that lets us know there is another possibility. The wisdom mind knows this. And the sensitivity or heart yearns for it.
  • thickpaperthickpaper Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Oh, by the way, on top of that I have ADHD, so I find it hard to concentrate in meditation.

    me too!:) It is very hard anyways, but harder with ADD! You might like to try chanting, I find that helps me get closer to where I need to be to meditate.
    I understand that positive cannot exist without negative, so if you get rid of negative does that not get rid of positive? This leaves me very confused.

    Everything is inevitably negative, this is Dukka, in essence. But what the path offers is a way to remove or reduce the negative quality of experiences (yours and others).

    Also, I was wondering, what makes Buddhism correct, instead of Taoism or Confucianism, or even Hinduism?

    The Four Noble Truths, these seem ultimately "corrrect" to me:)


    namaste
  • edited October 2010
    tl;dr

    To answer your topic question, It's neither. Zen (which translates into meditation, which is the practice buddha taught) teaches a method which allows us to "accept" the current situation, regardless of what that situation may be.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2010
    CPaul,

    I find that seeing the situation is good. But trying to paste over a 'good' feeling is bad. If its bad its bad. Seeing it has a 'good' quality to it. Its confusing its like theres two separate goods.

    In another way of looking. Just as you say we accept the moment. But if hidden or even obvious our only motive is to smooth over any alarm and paste over a good vibe then we just stay stuck in the alarm. It never works.

    On the other hand it automatically feels good when we let go of denial and see things how they are. Its like if you are lonely but in denial. The moment you admit you wish for a friend you will feel an emotion in your heart that is like the sweet nectar. It won't mainline you and stone you. (well not forever). But it lets you know you are alive.
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Hi revolutionary14,

    To answer the question you pose in terms of Buddhist practice, without trying to be difficult - it is neither neutral nor positive.
    As Jeffrey discusses above it is about seeing things as they are.
    An interesting distinction which I was fortunate to hear my teacher explain came to mind and maybe is useful here as illustration of the understanding of experience to be gained through practice - reading is different from seeing.
    Reading is done with the physical eye whereas seeing utilises the spiritual eye.
  • edited October 2010
    andyrobyn wrote: »
    Reading is done with the physical eye whereas seeing utilises the spiritual eye.


    Could you elaborate on this, please Andy ? What do you mean by 'seeing' ? :confused:

    Are you making a distinction between seeing/reading with the physical eye and understanding or knowing something through intuitive awareness and wisdom ? In which case maybe a word other than 'seeing' would be less confusing?

    I wonder if you meant it in the sense of a 'seer' perhaps, but unfortunately that makes me think of Harry Potter magic rather than Buddhism .;)




    .
  • edited October 2010
    There is a sense of fear when one reads that they will lose desire/craving. This is an unfortunate result stemming from how we understand the meaning of words ;)

    Think of it this way. If you knew with certainty you would be dead in 24 hours would your priorities change? Would you immediately lose all desire for some things and retain it for other things?

    That's something like the loss of desire talked about in Buddhism. As we begin to see things as they actually are instead of as our storied inner thoughts and dialogue have convinced us they are we become 'world weary'. The worldly things we used to chase after don't hold as much interest once we realize they didn't and never can provide us with the satisfaction we once thought they could. The worldly things we used to avoid we start to realize don't have the power to make us suffer the way we used to think they could.

    If you take up dharma practice in a serious and consistent way then you will slowly, but surely die to the self you are today. Your interests will change, you will spend less time busying yourself mindlessly, you will start to see through a different set of eyes.

    From the outside looking in this is very scary. In practice, it's comforting and scary at the same time. I don't know anyone who has walked this path for very long at all who says they regret it.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Of course Buddhism is positivity. If you endlessly chase goals like more money, or the latest gizmo you are not going to be happy. For example, there's a level around which your emotions fluctuate. Most people are either neutral or negative, so when they are upset they are even more negative and when they are happy they might be slightly happy. However, winning the lottery, for example will not shift that level. You will be happy for a little while but within a year, your happiness will be at the same level as it was before you won the lottery. However, Buddhism shifts that level. When a trained monk is in a good mood, he's very joyous, when he's in a bad mood, he's slightly less joyous.

    People seem to think giving up desires will make them unhappy, but it's quite the opposite.
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    Could you elaborate on this, please Andy ? What do you mean by 'seeing' ? :confused:

    Are you making a distinction between seeing/reading with the physical eye and understanding or knowing something through intuitive awareness and wisdom ? In which case maybe a word other than 'seeing' would be less confusing?

    I wonder if you meant it in the sense of a 'seer' perhaps, but unfortunately that makes me think of Harry Potter magic rather than Buddhism .;)




    .

    " Are you making a distinction between seeing/reading with the physical eye and understanding or knowing something through intuitive awareness and wisdom ? In which case maybe a word other than 'seeing' would be less confusing? "

    Yes and Yes :)

    Seeing things as they are, in the way Jeffrey was describing - involves the knowing and understanding which makes the degree of acceptance required possible, in my experience.
  • LostieLostie Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Quoted for keeps. Thanks for the "level" pointers. :)
    Of course Buddhism is positivity. If you endlessly chase goals like more money, or the latest gizmo you are not going to be happy. For example, there's a level around which your emotions fluctuate. Most people are either neutral or negative, so when they are upset they are even more negative and when they are happy they might be slightly happy. However, winning the lottery, for example will not shift that level. You will be happy for a little while but within a year, your happiness will be at the same level as it was before you won the lottery. However, Buddhism shifts that level. When a trained monk is in a good mood, he's very joyous, when he's in a bad mood, he's slightly less joyous.

    People seem to think giving up desires will make them unhappy, but it's quite the opposite.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Lostie, if you would like the source for that, it can be found here.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited November 2010
    OP: Buddhas are compassionate and wise beings that fully interact with others and live freely and fully in every moment. They are the happiest people alive, if you've ever met one! To be a Buddha is not to shift into neutral, but to permanently shift into a positive state of "it's all good" that accepts the beauty and perfection of all experiences. Fear of losing yourself is natural; for some it's personality, for others it's a soul -- but you'll have to judge for yourself, no one can truly relay to you what the enlightened mind is like (not really).
  • edited November 2010
    So this is my first post, and I'll give a little history on how I came to eastern philosophy..

    I read the whole thing, and welcome you to the forum! I can definitely empathize with your experience and came about Buddhism in a different way, but I would say it's tough to control that anxiety at first, but it gets easier the more you commit to practicing.
    I am afraid that if I rid myself of all desire it will hinder my relationships and life, and that it will be a state of neutrality or nothingness, rather than one of positivity.

    Equanimity isn't mere indifference or apathy. It is a feeling of "unbiasedness" It's not really neutral, but an expansive and understanding state of mind. It means you don't prejudge, and see things for how they really are. It isn't something to fear and can enhance and expand your social circle, but I am wondering if you're committing too much to the idea of social repute.

    Imagine for a moment you're a movie star and have the whole world focusing on every inch of your conduct overly examining every inch of your life. Craving for popularity is a double-edged sword (much like all cravings) because it creates more problems than it solves. Do a good contemplation on the drawbacks of popularity and you will see that it's not all it's cracked up to be.
    I understand that positive cannot exist without negative, so if you get rid of negative does that not get rid of positive? This leaves me very confused.

    Examine for example the 8 worldly concerns.

    Avoiding these 8 mental states is important in releasing a person’s attachment to things in pursuit of short term pleasure

    The Eight Worldly Concerns are:
    1. Getting what you want, material gain (concrete) and immaterial gain(abstract) forever.
    2. Avoiding loss or avoiding getting what you do not want.
    3. Wanting (instant) happiness or gratification.
    4. Not wanting unhappiness or any unpleasant emotion ever.
    5. Wanting fame, power, acknowledgement, and prestige.
    6. Not wanting shame, disrepute, obscurity and being unknown, or unrecognized.
    7. Wanting praise, flattery, and good things said to and about us.
    8. Not wanting blame, criticism or ostracism or bad things said about us ever.

    Looking at these Worldly Concerns most people would think they are positive guidelines and things that bring happiness and comfort, but they actually provide the basis for fear, and unhappiness. A person who is obsessed with gain will be dreadfully afraid of loss, a person obsessed with happiness with be afraid of unhappiness. A person obsessed with fame will be afraid of shame fading into obscurity. A person obsessed with praise will be afraid of criticism, blame and ostracism. However, if one looks at these in critical reflection: One Realizes that there are positive aspects and negative aspects with all of these Dharmas, but our mind is conditioned into thinking one is worse than the other. A person with a balanced Equanimity based mind will see the drawbacks of the worldly concerns, and the benefits of all of them as well. They see the drawbacks and benefits in an unbiased way.
    If you lose desire don't you lose purpose?

    No way.
    I mean I enjoy the company of people, and music, I feel it is my purpose in life to have friends, have a family, help help people out, and persue music.

    What happens when your voice dulls, your hand age, your family dies, your friends move, your friends die, you age, you get sick and you die? Naturally you'll begin to panic and suffer emotionally in a powerful way. I bet just reading this reminder will bother you in a profound way. The problem is a mark of existence we call impermanence. With impermanence, dependent origination, and suffering being a part of life, we'll feel controlled by our desires and desire to control everything.
    But if I didn't desire to do these things wouldnt I just be not doing them, yet happy?

    And that's the point. You need to understand that happiness is found in living in the moment, but the moment is temporary.
    I mean if I'm happy I'm happy, but I don't think happiness is everything. Like the saying "gain the world but lose your soul" maybe id be extemely content, but would I lose my purpose?

    Your purpose will change. Everything changes. You grow up and your concerns change. Happiness is a rare thing, don't take it for granted.
    Like what about the desire for the well being of my family, or the desire to work toward peace?

    Do you feel these are done with an agenda in mind? A selfish one? If not, then you've nothing to worry about.
    I am a social person, I love hangin out with people, but I am worried that if I no longer worry what people think about me, my social skills will be damaged.

    What do you mean by social skills? So I can give clear advice. :confused:
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Anxiety is tough, because I realize that my fears are irrational, but they still exist, and my thought pattern remains irrational despite my knowledge. (It is improving day by day though)
    Can meditation help this? and is there a certain kind of meditation directed to it.
    Oh, by the way, on top of that I have ADHD, so I find it hard to concentrate in meditation. xD!

    Most fears are irrational, really. They're triggered, like all our emotions, by thoughts, and those thoughts usually have no basis on fact. The thoughts are mostly formed out of habit or were useful in one situation but should now be discarded. What's important is that you learn to recognize you are not the thoughts in your mind. The thoughts that trigger your fears can be examined, checked to see if you can figure out what triggered them and continues to do so, and released back to the nothingness they came from. Then, instead of fear, you think, "Humph. Another one of those thoughts."

    However, this is no substitute for professional evaluation and help, especially for the ADHD. Some of the meditation students I taught years ago were on medication or in some sort of treatment that helped them quite a bit.
    Now that thats out of the way..

    I enjoy feeling positive, and having diversity in my life, and I am afraid that if I rid myself of all desire it will hinder my relationships and life, and that it will be a state of neutrality or nothingness, rather than one of positivity.

    I understand that positive cannot exist without negative, so if you get rid of negative does that not get rid of positive? This leaves me very confused.

    If you lose desire don't you lose purpose? I mean I enjoy the company of people, and music, I feel it is my purpose in life to have friends, have a family, help help people out, and persue music. But if I didn't desire to do these things wouldnt I just be not doing them, yet happy? I mean if I'm happy I'm happy, but I don't think happiness is everything. Like the saying "gain the world but lose your soul" maybe id be extemely content, but would I lose my purpose?
    -Like what about the desire for the well being of my family, or the desire to work toward peace?

    I am a social person, I love hangin out with people, but I am worried that if I no longer worry what people think about me, my social skills will be damaged.

    thanks for ur time,
    peace out!

    This one is really easy to answer. It's a problem of translation, something that unfortunately has been so engraved into the English versions of the sutras that there's nothing we can do about it, now. Also, English words have multiple meanings and it's sometimes hard to know the subtle meaning without context.

    We don't strive to eliminate desire, we strive to eliminate craving. Happy, sad, excited, involved, motivated, bored, all these are emotions and you will never get rid of your emotions, even if you try. Desire as in wanting to do something or wanting something for yourself or others is not necessarily bad. As pointed out in the previous answers, the translation tries for "selfish desires" usually. It is the craving, the grasping to your desires to the exclusion of reality that we eliminate.

    Hope this helps.
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