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need a little help
Hi everybody, thanks for making me feel welcome. I have been participating in a debate forum on a site called praize in which Christians toss ideas around. I had pretty much decided to stop bothering with it because most of the discussions turned to some version of when the world was going to end or who was not going to make the cut on judgement day and both of those lines of thought are really not keeping with what I feel the emphasis of the whole counsel of Christian scripture is about. I also have views on these issues well out of the Christian mainstream, so the discussions got heated pretty fast and were unproductive. The reason I am here is because the debate topic posted in their newsletter for this season was something such as 'Does Buddhism shoot itself in the foot' and the premise was that since attaining Nirvana is a desire and one of the tenants of Buddhism is a negation of desire the philosophy as a whole was not viable. I have read a number of books and articles by Buddhist authors as well as Christian authors who had an affinity for Buddhist philosophy, such as myself. My understanding is that there is a seperation of right desire and desires that produce suffering and many cautions about being focused on the results of practice as well as spiritual experiences one may have. My sense of the focus of Buddhism has been that an individual should understand that their nature is already 'Buddha' and the work accomplished is a stripping away of illusion and hinderence that prevents the manifistation of the state enlightenment and nirvana. At the risk of using an abused cliche, the full experience and perception of 'now' seems to be the essence Zen. What I need help with is locating an appropriate text to convey these ideas in a concise manner, unless I am mistaken in my thinking, then any correction will be appreciated.
Thanks
Peace and Light, David:wavey:
Thanks
Peace and Light, David:wavey:
0
Comments
I further very much appreciate your open minded and logical, fair questioning.
It would be almost impossible for me to give you a deep, philosophical and detailed reasoning behind my particular choice in following Buddhism.
I was born, baptised and raised Roman Catholic, and I am still conscious of the extraordinary and lasting influence this has had on my character in general, I am grateful to it for bringing me 'thus far'... however, the stringent, immovable and often intransigent attitudes I have met among those who purpoted to have some 'authority' within the R.C. Church has left me feeling at times inadequate, confused and as much in the dark as I ever was, before having posed whatever question came to mind - !!
The further evidence that no two people seemed to be able to agree on the true meaning of the message within the New Testament, or to have a commonality with regard to God, 'his' message and intentions for us, found me desperately wanting.
I therefore embarked on a relatively self-fuelled and motivated quest for new and more satisfactory answers....
My search led me to first learn a great deal about Buddhism through a publication titled 'The Tibetan Book of Living & Dying' which inspite of its' title, expanded broadly across a wide section of different creeds and beliefs to illustrate the 'Truth' of Life as I knew it. It felt almost as if the book was sitting on a shelf, waiting for just me, personally to find it, and read its' message.
I could go on ad infinitem about how Buddhism for me provides answers to questions that I had previously pondered on and equally has shown me that at times the questions I pose are irellevant, time-wasting and not for me to need to worry about....
Check out this thread, which may serve to clarify things a bit more:
http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122
and also these threads, which may be useful to you:
http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10648#post10648
http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14
Hope to see a great deal more of you, and thanks for coming in.
Yes, there is a difference bewteen the two types of 'desire'. Try these links and see if they help:
Desire as a part of the Path:
The Bhumija Sutta (Note: wish = desire)
The Brahmana Sutta
Things as They Are
Desire as defilements:
The Sanyojana Sutta
The Gandhabhaka (Bhadraka) Sutta
The Iccha Sutta
Various Suttas from the Samyutta Nikaya
Jason
I believe that The Vatthupama Sutta might also be of some help.
Jason
I am not sure how sophisticated the people are on the web site, but if they are not too sophisticated I recommend Thich Nhat Hanh's writings. There are a lot of them at: www.plumvillage.org/teachings/DharmaTalkTranscripts/TranscriptsOfSelectedDT.htm He can say it in a simple way that people who do not know much will be able to understand better. He addresses this issue. Hope it helps --
EM
I do have a question that has sit at the back of my mind for a while, and would appreciate any insight you have to offer. It concerns a 'hot button' issue, but please don't feel that I am being provocative. I don't wish to debate, just hear the response of some dedicated Buddhist that are knowledgable. The few Buddhist that I know personaly have not had an answer.
A couple of years ago I picked up an old paperback book called the "Teachings of Buddha." I went through that little book and wrote a verse from the Christian scripture beside just about every saying. What confused me was that, according to this little paperback translation, Buddha spoke of a state of misery or bliss following physical death in this existence. I never heard him reference reincarnation. Is reincarnation something that manifested in Buddhist teaching following Buddha's existence in this form ending, or is there just a lot more I have not read? I also read "The Gospel of Buddha" and I don't recall finding reincarnation there, but I may have and don't recall it.
That reminds me. it seems as if Buddha more refused to speculate about God and his nature than assert that there was no actual God. Is the strong belief that there is no 'person' of God something that developed or was that a teaching of Buddha?
Thank you for your patience.
Peace and Light, David
I can't answer the question you had regarding physical death.
But, if Buddha refused to speculate about something he had no knowledge of, how much more awakened can you get than that?
Buddha claimed he was a man. I don't think there was any mystical about the man except he was able to see things very clearly and for what they were.
I wish I was awakened enough to keep my yap shut about things when I honestly have no idea of what I'm talking about
-bf
David,
You will find a lot about rebirth in the threads here. For the Shakyamuni Buddha and his followers, it was a given part of their belief system, although brought to new meaning by Buddhist teachers. At the same time, and for more than a thousand years beyond, it was also a key belief which was even part of early Christian thought.
In Tibetan Buddhism, the 'stages' of the post-death experience are studied and catalogued. Some of the more traditionalist Tibetan teachers still maintain that it is incorrect for anyone to call themselves 'Buddhist' if they do not believe in rebirth. Not all take this view.
The same is true about the notion of a Supreme 'Person': some would deny it, some might, even, affirm it, and some can take it or leave it!
Buddhism has a central core in the Jewels of Refuge but the interpretation and understanding of the Jewels varies from teacher to teacher and, dare I say it, from refugee to refugee.
I remember when I felt it was shown to me that doctrines are like cardboard boxes that are used to move us from one place to the next on our journey, but then, like cardboard boxes, are best disposed of. A few days later I read Buddha's teaching about doctrines being like rafts to cross a river and then being used for firewood so as not to become a burdensome hinderence in a magazine. Point is, I may not be living in the same cardboard box in the same ally as someone else, but I will enjoy the bonfire when we all get to the other side of the river.
Peace and Light, David
Peace and Light, David
"The true mark of spiritual depth and perception is contentment"
LUVUMEANIT, David
One of the great thinkers and formers of Christianity as we have it today was the Angelic Doctor, Thomas Aquinas. He wrote monumental works, summarising and discussing Christian doctrine and is still used as a fundamental text. But, towards the end of his life, he stopped writing and, when asked why, is reported to have said: "All that I have written is worth as little as a bale of straw compared with what I have seen."
And Saint John, last to die of those who had known Jesus in life, when he was a very old man, would be carried to meetings in Ephesus. When asked to preach, he would refuse, saying, "My little children, love one another. When you have done that, all is done."
You are right, the Buddha did choose to refrain from speculating about such things as God, the beginning of the universe, the ending of the universe, if the universe was finite, or if the universe was infinite, etc. He was only concerned with one thing, the complete and utter cessation of dukkha.
The Buddha did not speak about a creator God often. When he did reference such a Deity, he never said they didn't exist, but that our beliefs about such things were incorrect in many ways.
For example, in the Tittha Sutta the Buddha explains that people who believe that everything a person experiences is due to a creator God is not a correct view because they remain stuck in inaction. This does not say that there is no such God, or that belief in such a God is wrong, but that belief in everything being completely conditioned by such a God is not a correct view because that view leads a person to inaction. (Notice that the Buddha has an issue with the 'view' and nothing else.)
There is another Sutta, the Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta where a monk visits the Great Brahma (a supreme deity in ancient and modern-day India) and asks the Great Brahma a question for which He has no answer for. This particular God thought himself to be immortal and supreme, but in fact he was not - he was just very powerful and long-lived.
In the Silabbata Sutta Ananda, a disciple of the Buddha, is asked by the Buddha if other religions and practices were beneficial and worth following. Ananda answered that if those religions and practices are correctly followed, i.e. negative mental qualities are decreased and positive mental qualities are increased, then they are skillful and worth following.
The Buddha showed great respect for other people's beliefs. There were certain students of other teachers who begged the Buddha to accept them as his students, but out of respect for their teachers he declined saying that they should respect their teachers and beliefs, and return. This was done because even if you follow another teacher or belong to another religion you can still observe your mind and learn to understand it, you can still observe the precepts (i.e. not killing, not lying, not stealing, not participating in sexual misconduct, and not indulging in intoxicants), and you can still achieve the Unconditioned.
If you choose to follow the teachings of Jesus then follow those teachings wholeheartedly. The Buddha never said to only follow him. He only suggested practices in which people could observe of their own volition to understand their existence better, ultimately achieving the fruits of such a contemplative life - peace.
As for rebirth, well the Buddha did teach that, whether actual or metaphorical i.e. actual realms vs. mind-states. He taught that a person could experience rebirth into any of the Thrity-one Realms of Existence. There were heavenly realms, hell, realms, ghost realms, animals realms, human realms, etc. The only difference was that the time in each existence was not permanent. Once the conditions for such an existence were exhausted the being was reborn into another realm after their death/dissolution of body (material or immaterial body). For example, if a person did many good deeds out of selflessness they would be reborn into a heavenly realm, but the fuel of all those actions would eventually run out and that person would be reborn into a lower realm (unless of course they remained selfless, kind, and virtous which would prolong their heavenly existence and/or allow them to be reborn in an even happier plane of existence after their 'dissolution'.), perhaps in the human realm again. If that being were to commit many evil deeds out of selfishness and greed due to sheer lust during this existence then they may be reborn into the animal realm after death/dissoultion of the body - because they acted like an animal in their previous life. But, as with the heavenly birth, this too would not last. Once the conditions for their rebirth was exhausted they would be reborn elsewhere after death/dissolution of body.
Although my knowledge and information of the Buddha's teachings are incomplete, I hope that what I do know is helpful to you.
Thank you for your thoughtful questions.
Jason
Glad to meet you.
EM
Hey Elohim -- how about this quote from the Dammapada as a fundamental teaching? It's my favorite.
EM
We are what we think. All that we are, arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind,
And trouble will follow you as the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think. All that we are, arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind, and happiness will follow you
as your shadow, unshakable.
Look how he abused me, beat me, how he threw me down and robbed me
Live in such thoughts, and you live in Hate
Look how he abused me, beat me, how he threw me down and robbed me
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world, hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate.
This is the Law, the ancient, unexhaustable.
"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man." (Mk 7:15)
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." (Mt 5:39-41)
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Mt 5:44)
Jason
And fine words they are too.
EM