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Buddhist Language
Here is another daft question!
Why does "western buddhism" use tibetan, pali and other asian/eastern languages in english texts?
As a European we grow up learning several languages, obviously I speak English, I also being Irish speak Irish and am fairly proficient in French & Italian. I also studied Latin for a while in school. However, probably because the root languages are so different from my linguistic knowledge, my dense head has a difficulty retaining very important buddhist terms.
I realise that it is difficult to translate correctly alot of the terms correctly but surely it would be easier for "Western Buddhists" to try? Also, pronouncation is practically impossible because you get no reference points as how to pronounce buddhist terms.
One last thing, Dharma and Dhamma ... whats the difference?
Thanks all!
Why does "western buddhism" use tibetan, pali and other asian/eastern languages in english texts?
As a European we grow up learning several languages, obviously I speak English, I also being Irish speak Irish and am fairly proficient in French & Italian. I also studied Latin for a while in school. However, probably because the root languages are so different from my linguistic knowledge, my dense head has a difficulty retaining very important buddhist terms.
I realise that it is difficult to translate correctly alot of the terms correctly but surely it would be easier for "Western Buddhists" to try? Also, pronouncation is practically impossible because you get no reference points as how to pronounce buddhist terms.
One last thing, Dharma and Dhamma ... whats the difference?
Thanks all!
0
Comments
A very sane question, Grainne, and one which points up a very fundamental question: how far is it possible to re-contextualise? And how far is it useful to popularise specific, technical terms?
Even in our post-Christian world, we may be accustomed to certain expressions like "grace", "salvation", "soul", "transsubstantiation", "Mass", "Rapture", etc., even if we do not understand their full, theological meanings. Withouts some of these concepts, it is virtually impossible to understand the Western Christian message, which has become almost normative. Buddhism also has many technical terms which are extremely difficult to translate into a Western mindset - indeed, translations often re-contextualise the words into quasi-montheist concepts, betraying their origins.
An old geshe (Tibetan doctor of theology) said to me that, if he were to want to be a Christian, he would have to learn a whole new language. And that is exactly the point. He was indicating that certain words, in different languages, may appear to point at the same "deep structure" but that may be what the French call a faux ami. Take the Sanskrit word atman which is variously translated as 'self' or 'soul', depending on the translator. Neither gives the truth of the Hindu meaning ('spark' of the Flame) or the Buddhist which combines self, soul and personality withjout being any of them.
Some of us use Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese words depending (in my own case) on the teacher who first taught me them. I have less and less attachment to linguistic 'purity' - which goes along with my lack of doctrinal purity as well.
Our dear brother, Elohim, as a student of the Pali Canon, only uses Pali unless addressing other traditions where Pali words do not exist. The ven. Palzang will tend to use Tibetan and Sanskrit.
As for Dhamma/Dharma, kamma/karma, does it really matter so long as we understand?
The school system in the States is such that children don't even start learning a language until high school - which in my opinion is way past the age of easily learning a language.
Very bad of us. I'm always amazed at how people from other parts of the world have such a wonderful grasp of the English language as well as their mother tongue.
And you speak Irish? Very cool. I studied Gaelic for awhile - but that was years after Gaelic split off between Irish and Gaelic (Gaelic for the Scots).
-bf
I suppose the last thing you wrote - Dharma/Dhamma " Does it really matter as long as we understand" kind of sums it up.
Is there a glossery/dictonary available for Buddhist terms?
Buddhafoot: Thanks also for taking the time to reply - Yip I did all my primary schooling (4years - 12 years) through Irish. But just as a by the by: Irish is known as Gaelic to Irish speakers as well. We (Irish people) tend to call it Irish just to make it easier for other people to understand. We (Irish people) tend to call the Gaelic spoken in Scotland as Scots Gaelic, just to differenciate. Also, both languages are extremly similar, in fact if I listen very carefully to Scots Gaelic, I can get the general gist of it, without having any particular knowledge of it, they are that similar!
Thanks alot for your help!
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/bdoor/common/sources/glossary.htm
We had this discusion in another thread, but for the life of me I cannot find it. So briefly I shall try to explain the gist of it. When we use a Pali, Sanskrit, or whatever-languaged-word in place of an English word it is usually for a good reason. Such words are used because they cannot be translated into English as well as we would like. They would not carry the essence or true meaning of that word, and the importance would be lost. Dukkha, for example, can be translated as pain, stress, or unsatisfactoriness. However, no single word really captures the essence or meaning of all the connotations of dukkha. The definition given in the Suttas for dukkha is:
""Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." — SN LVI.11
A contemporary definition of dukkha is:
Disturbance, irritation, dejection, worry, despair, fear, dread, anguish, anxiety; vulnerability, injury, inability, inferiority; sickness, aging, decay of body and faculties, senility; pain/pleasure; excitement/boredom; deprivation/excess; desire/frustration, suppression; longing/aimlessness; hope/hopelessness; effort, activity, striving/repression; loss, want, insufficiency/satiety; love/lovelessness, friendlessness; dislike, aversion/attraction; parenthood/childlessness; submission/rebellion; decision/indecisiveness, vacillation, uncertainty.
— Francis Story in Suffering, in Vol. II of The Three Basic Facts of Existence (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983)
So you see, ancient languages had certain words for very specific, yet wide-ranging phenomena; whereas today, we would need a short paragraph to get the gist of what that word entails. It is more convienent to use the Pali or Sanskrit words in some instances.
You can try to translate them, of course, but you would lose out on much of the intended meaning by the Buddha.
As for pronouncing the words, there are many guides to pronouncing Pali and Sanskrit. It's not very difficult really. Tibetan on the other hand, I won't touch it with a ten foot pole (that's about 3 meters if you follow the metric scale
As to the difference between 'Dhamma' and 'Dharma', well the main difference here is spelling. Yep, that's right. They mean the same thing. The only difference is that one has an 'm' while the other has an 'r'. Pali and Sanskrit, which are two completely different languages, are remarkably similar.
Hope this helps,
Jason
Here is a Buddhist Dictionary of Pali Buddhist terms and doctrines. (Sorry, I study the Pali Canon so all of my information is generally centered around that. I do not have any sources for Sanskrit.)
Jason
I didn't know that. I had just read that in the 50's (I believe) that Ireland finally said, "Enough of this crap - let's have our OWN language." Thus the technical split between Irish and Scottish.
What's really amazing is that: even though they are similar - they only 'split' a number of decades ago - and now a speaker can only get the 'gist' of Scots Gaelic.
Damn Scots - it's probably that accent that screws everything up! Tapadh leibh!
-bf
Scots Gaelic was forbidden by law after the '45 Rebellion and the slaughter of Culloden.
But tartans and bagpipes were also forbidden after Culloden Moor. Oddly enough, bagpipes were forbidden because they were considered instruments of war (most especially after the Scottish beat "Johnnie Cope".
I don't think the language ever died out and my only point was that the two languages had drifted so apart over the years (and the distance) that they weren't really both falling under the same title "Gaelic".
How do you know so much about everything, Mr. SmartyPants?
I'd ask you my sperm count - but you probably know that too - and I don't want everyone laughing at me.
-bf
Palzang
Jason
There is a school of thought that suggests that Ireland and the UK where connected between the north of Ireland and Scotland, centuries back. Connected in so far as when the tide was out that you could walk accross the land mass between the north and scotland. (Like Saint Malo and Mount Saint Michel in France!) So the Irish moved accross and the two languages where the same originally and both came from the same root language. (Dont know if this is true but there is a strong suggestion it may be)
Irish or Gaelic (Gaeilge in Irish) was spoken down through the centuries here. However when Queen Elizabeth started the "plantations" giving English titled men large portions of the country to try and control the indigineous Irish people, Irish people where then allowed to rent portions of farms from their English landowners. One famous one was Sir Walter Raleigh (the cape) who is reputed to have brought the potato to Ireland. Because Irish was a completly different language and the English landowners couldn't understand their subordinates, it was outlawed. However, hedgeschools, literally schools set up on the side of the road near hedges, became very prevelant and Irish as a language still flourished.
Oliver Cromwell probably did the most damage to the Irish Lanaguage and was much more sucessfull at nearly killing it out completly. His resolve was against Catholisim more than Irish but the majority of Catholics in this country spoke Irish so the two went hand in hand. He threw alot of Irish people out of their lands (even those who only rented land from English settlers) who would not convert to the English protestant religions. The expression "to Hell or to Connaght" is attributed to him. Connaght is a large provence in Ireland to the west which encompasses Galway etc. The land there was of no agricultural value so as far as he was concerned Irish people could go to hell or to Connaght which in the days of predominatly agrigultural subsistance was tantamount to the same thing.
There are large villages and towns in Ireland that Irish (gaeilge) never died out at all. We call these areas "an Gaeltacht" . All the people in these towns speak Irish as their first language. However in the major towns, Cork, Limerick, Dublin Irish was never spoken except by maybe a tiny minority. In 1916 during our war of independance the "patriots" spoke Irish to each other so as not to be detected by English spys. After the civil war here and the foundation of the state in 1922, Irish was returned to full status and now in our constitution Irish has exactly the same standing as English. Most Children in Ireland now learn irish from the age of 4 to 18. However parents in all parts of the country have the choice to send their children both at primary (4-12yrs) and secondary (12-17/18yrs) to all Irish speaking schools where everything, Maths, History, English etc etc is thought through Irish!!!! Actually in Ireland at the moment their is a push by the "gaelgeors" (Irish speakers) to be put on the European register of its main languages. Not sure how that battle is going.
So there you go .... my Irish lesson .... How did I get onto Irish ... I started at Buddhist language and ended up here ... talk about needing to calm down my mind. A little mindfullness would help no end:banghead: