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Reincarnation/Rebirth question
If there is no self (Anicca) then who is reborn after death of this body?
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And don't worry about it. The longer you move down this road, the more it will make sense. And it will make sense in the only way that actually makes any sense ... from direct observation and experience.
If you're interested, you can read my thoughts about not-self and rebirth here and here.
The gist is like this:
There are many aspects within Buddhism that we can test to see if they are true or not. There are some aspects that are beyond our understanding. By testing those elements which we can, and finding them true, we develop faith that those that are beyond our understanding are also true and that one day we may understand them directly.
This would be defined as critical faith, as it is underpinned by personal validation.
This is where I find karma and rebirth fall into the spectrum of Buddhist theory.
Cheers, WK
With the true realisation of no self (Anatta), this question becomes irrelevant.
Speculation about rebirth is irrelevant to one's practice in the here and now.
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you replied so fast.
Firstly sorry for the mistake of calling selflessness "Anicca" and thank you for correcting me as it is Anatta.
Yes I see now that in time all will be revealed and that this is beyond my understanding. My mind was just curious about this, the thought arose every now and then for a few months and now I found these forums and so I thought I'd ask.
I read a passage from this book "Eight mindful steps to happiness" by Bhante Gunaratana. He talks about how although there is no self, we create a "backpack" through our actions and thoughts etc. which provides the momentum for rebirth and is carried on.
Thanks guys.
http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud12.htm
great article I just found that was of use to me.
Thanks man. That article really helped me understand.
Of particular interest for me was this part of section 5... "An example of Dependent Origination in everyday life. "
http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise5.htm
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The mind stream of yours continue to flow throw lifetimes.
beginning-less and endless.
so the mind stream is self?
We are not something new that comes to be and then is gone. We are the result of conditions, of change, forming new temporary phenomena (these bodies... these aggregates), which will fade and become the basis for new phenomena. This is our rebirth, and it is selfless as with all things.
Buddhism creates individuals. People who cannot be influenced or manipulated outside there own worldview or "universe".
By remaining neutral in your actions and minds, your intentions (your true intentions regardless of what you think or beleive.) come out. They will come out in subtle ways. You will see them without seeing them.
Rebirth is a manifestation or your will to survive kicking in after your dead.
As you very well know, someones intentions/influence can remain in the world even after they are dead, yes? Of course they are, this is an unfalsifiable statement and I challenge they greatest intention-manifestors in this exsistence to demolish or falisify this statement.
Who's to say their will of survival goes with their death? Hmm?
No. Sir. > No. One. Ever. Dies.
Rebirth in this point-of-view does not exsist, because, within reason and reality - no one ever dies.
You will not be aware of your rebirth until you re-self-actualize in your new self, so to speak.
It is a paradox, Cloud explains it well.
It is like being without being. Dieing without dieing and living without living.
The individual is everything as everything is the individual.
I do not digest that independance is not possible.
It is both attached and independant. It is also neither and both.
I can be independant, attached, neutral, defensive and agrresive in my behaviors all at the same time or none at the same time.
The twelve links are specifically based on mental phenomenon; they do not specifically refer to physical interactions. While what you said is not wrong in a physical respect, if this is the entire story, then this is nihilistic from a mental point of view. You seem to be denying the existence of the mind, or postulating that it is a purely physical phenomenon, or as more commonly done in today’s society, pretending it doesn’t exist.
Buddhism is about the mind.
To reduce it to brain activity is to allow it to lose most of its effectiveness. The concept of subjective experience is vital and most of the Buddhist teachings are based on a subjective foundation. When you allow for the possibility of subjective analysis, this then opens the mind to the possibility of the mind coexisting with physical phenomenon, which then allows for the possibility of rebirth due to the two parallel paths of causation of mind and matter/energy.
The killer of rebirth is objectivity, it is impossible to allow for from a purely objective (black box) perspective. That's why Westerners have trouble with rebirth, because of our cultural heritage that has eliminated the usefulness of subjectivity in the early days of modern philosophy. Anyone that does a bit of reading of philosophy, particularly in relation to realism will find out that the objective view that is taken as dogma (scientific realism) these days is not founded in science but founded in belief. We are fed this information through our media and schools by those who do not understand the philosophical implications of what they promote. A good magazine that talked about these sorts of issues is Scientific American: Mind. Choosing Reality by B A Wallace is another though it’s a bit harder to understand.
Of course this is just my take,
Cheers, WK