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Nirvana for all?
JetsFan366
Explorer
Did the Buddha believe that everyone could attain Nirvana? If so, based on what logic? (I am asking in all sincerity) It would seem that for some people, certain states of mind would be extremely difficult if not impossible to attain. Someone who is mentally handicapped, as a relatively extreme example, might not be able to grasp some of the counter intuitiveness of Buddhist teachings/practices.
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So-called? Like my cousin who had brain damage at birth? I can assure you, he is not in nirvana. He suffers a great deal, and is attached to many things, just like I am.
I believe you, but I also have the understanding that by 'imagining' that mentally handicapped people are 'Buddhas in disguise', that this will help you to maintain the correct attitude when interacting with them.
It's a bit like me pretending that everyone has been my Mother in a previous life. Whether they actually were, or whether I believe they were is separate from the reality which is by doing this, it helps me deflate my ego and treat people in a better and more kind manner.
I worked with mentally handicapped people my whole life. I know how it is. But you can't necessarily judge another's state of consciousness. It's an imponderable unless you believe in rebirth.
I think most buddhists believe in rebirth. maybe not.
it is you think that 'he suffers'
may be/may be not you suffer thinking he suffers
Here is a fun exercise to try:
After a period of meditation consider how much you know and how much you believe. Which group is larger?
Spend some time in a group home or an acute treatment facility if you believe that... It may be true for some, but certainly not for all. I've worked with a lot who are in constant torture.
T: Did the Buddha believe that everyone could attain Nirvana?
S9: The Buddha said that, "Absolutely everyone is completely ‘Enlightened’ (aka in Nirvana), right here and right now, but their knowing of this is simply clouded over (aka covered over) by ignorance (aka confusion or wrongful thoughts and conceptions)."
T: It would seem that for some people, certain states of mind would be extremely difficult if not impossible to attain.
S9: Of course, this would be quite true if ‘Enlightenment’ (aka Nirvana) were a mental attainment.
However, since we are all aware of our own ‘Buddha Nature’ continuously at a subtle level, all of the time, than we can simply ‘Wake Up’ at any given moment to this fact. It doesn’t call for some kind of genius to do so.
T: Someone who is mentally handicapped, as a relatively extreme example, might not be able to grasp some of the counter intuitiveness of Buddhist teachings/practices.
S9: Zen says, “Don’t look at the finger pointing (the words). Look where the finger is pointing.”
In other words, Enlightenment is not accomplished by collecting words and concepts (aka knowledge), but rather is an intimate experience outside or beyond such doings on our part. We are rather cautioned to drop such things (conceptual knowledge) and become naked of them.
Man is an arrogant animal and believes that he is capable of doing Enlightenment much in the same way as he learned to dance or write books. Enlightenment is not just one more thing, same old/same old. Even the little animals that we feel quite superior to are 100 % Enlightened.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Palzang
But definitely possible in this life. I feel like people think of enlightenment as this impossible to achieve thing, and while it's certainly not easy it is definitely doable. imo. not saying you disagree with that just wanted to say it.
I have a quite a wise friend who said to me just yesterday that, he saw mankind as the only animal who was capable of thinking himself to be un-Enlightened.
You might very well have asked him, as I did, why do you say this? So let me share his answer with you. Smile!
He went on to say that, “Because of our mental capacity (as humans) to self reflect and identify ourselves through this capacity to most any concept that we can dream up, we can also dance off into error as to our actual identity. We think that who we are is a story line (ego self) that we are constantly writing. Because of this gift of self-reflection, which can easily be misused, we can also think up how very ‘UN’ we are (aka UN- Enlightened).”
Now this is not to say that we humans should simply go back to being just animals and throw off our self-reflective capacity, as it affords us a real opportunity to contemplate our Buddha Nature, which is our excellence. But, I do believe that we should come to see through deep investigation, or “Mindfulness,” that our human and mental lives go on quite automatically.
And:
Further as is said by the very wise among us, “That (Aka mind and body, and all of their doings and thinking) is not me,”
What think you on this?
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Buddha Nature is going cheap. Who wouldn't buy it?
ed. .... this isn't a critique of "Buddha Nature".
Just being silly
I hope that you didn’t understand me to be saying that ‘Buddha Nature’ is just the dualistic nature, or just a dualistic manifestation of finitude.
What I did mean to say, rather, is that the cat is dreaming he is a cat, as you are dreaming that you are a Jeffrey. When this dream either stops, or is over, or in someway is seen through, we all ‘Wake Up’ to our Buddha Nature much as the Buddha did.
The cat however does not tie itself up with labels like we humans seem to do. He just automatically goes about doing cat stuff, unattached to his memory traces of identity. He just does what his latest urge directs him to do, and lets go of it much like what the Taoists call, "Being in the "Flow." (Aka sitting beside the river of activities and not falling in.) Because of this lack in his activities of writing stories about his identity, and carrying baggage from his past, he could very well be seen as being ego-less.
I see it this way. The Buddha was ‘Awake’ in the dream.
This however doesn’t mean that you will be an all-new and improved Jeffrey when you get Enlightened. You will, in fact, see that you never were a Jeffrey thing.
Enlightenment will not be freedom of Jeffery, but rather freedom from Jeffery.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
Seriously thanks S. I understand buddha nature to be the same as unconditional awareness or bodhicitta.
Palzang
R: What is free from Jeffery?
S9: Everyone and everything (including Buddha Nature) is free of being labeled as Jeffrey. Only Jeffery may feel that he is still within the prison he calls Jeffery. Smile!
But stop crying for him, and take this moment to pay attention to your own problem, that of being in the conceptual prison that you call Richard. : ^ (
But, my dear Richard, don’t expect me to fall into the trap, or the error, of saying what the “Buddha Nature” is as in either word or concept. I think we both know that ‘Buddha Nature’ is not a mental thingy, but rather an intimate experience.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
J: I understand buddha nature to be the same as unconditional awareness, or bodhicitta.
S9: Yes, I have been reading and enjoying your posts right along, for quite a while now. The only complaint I can voice about your posts is that, I always wish that you would say more. Smile!
But this is coming from a person that doesn’t always know when to shut up. ; ^ )
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
........doh!!! .... me is Richard :eek:.
ooooh this is bad.
Well Leslie if you are "free from" "the conceptual prison" of personhood, if you have no attachment to personhood, could you pleeeeez pm me your personal bank account number? I'll just take enough for a new set of snow tires , promise. Thankyou in advance, because so far these online Buddhas who say they are liberated from personal identity seem to be fiercely protective of that very illusory personhood.
Thanks again Leslie:D
protecting "yourself" is still being benevolent, no? so long as it doesn't get in the way of being benevolent to others. Do you think an enlightened being would just go around letting people steal his livelihood, and overall allow bad things to happen to him for no real purpose other than letting other people act wrongly? just curious
I was was just ribbing Leslie. ...... but ....I do need to get new snow tires and thought it was worth a shot.:D
Q: But this is coming from a person that doesn’t always know when to shut up. ; ^ )
I always love it when you show up and agree with me, old friend. It makes me all tingly. ; ^ )
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
R: Well Leslie if you are "free from" "the conceptual prison" of personhood, if you have no attachment to personhood, could you pleeeeez pm me your personal bank account number?
S9: Being Enlightened doesn’t mean that you are automatically made stupid within this dream, anymore than the Buddha stuck sharp sticks in his dream eyes, just because he “Woke up,” to the fact that this was a dream world. I think too you will notice that Buddha continued to eat, etc.
R: These online Buddhas who say they are liberated from personal identity seem to be fiercely protective of that very illusory personhood.
S9: I think that this is a basic misunderstanding on your part. The dream continues, and the dream is self correcting. The only major thing that changes is that…you now realize that you are not that dream character, and the dream character's actions and thoughts are not yours.
I bet if the Buddha were alive today and posted right here on this sight, you would probably take exception with his claiming to be "Awake."
You would probably say he should throw off his robes and roll in the snow, if it is only a dream robe and dream snow. Grin!
I read once that people seem to prefer their deities far away, and great leaders to be dead…this gives them the convenience to interpret their words any way they wanted too, and more to their liking. Don’t let the ego trap you in this bias, too.
There are those among us who are actually ‘Enlightened,” if not at the very least quite clear-sighted, as well as being able and willing to share their insights. However, if we fear being one-upped, or even fear (because of a lack of trust in our own abilities) that we could be thrown off course, and so we close our ears, we (ourselves) will end up being the losers.
No need to thank me, Richard. I love this stuff.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
J: Do you think an enlightened being would just go around letting people steal his livelihood, and overall allow bad things to happen to him for no real purpose other than letting other people act wrongly? just curious
S9: I quite agree with what I believe you are getting at here.
Setting a person up to create bad karma would certainly be an act of cruelty on your part. It would be a little like standing back, fully realizing what will happen next, and letting a little kid run in front of an oncoming car.
Even if it is a dream kid, and a dream car, I bet within the dream it would really dream hurt. ; ^ )
Within the dream we live and act as/if it were real, even while at the same time an Enlightened person can get the big picture and dis-identify. I see it a bit like Lucid Dreaming.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
good point. I sometimes think of it like a game. We know that we're just playing a game, but we have to play along for the sake of everyone that doesn't know.
So sure there are those among us who are clear sighted. Big deal. you still have to eat, shit, pay the bills, and listen to the doctor say "cancer". Online talk of Enlightenment is cheap.
J: I have a hard time not thinking i'm special.
S9: Yes, we are all victims of our old thought habits. Thinking ourselves special is something we all must confess to doing at times, that is if we are as honest and brave as you are in doing so. : ^ )
In this culture where we all grew up, we were taught to think in terms like getting ahead (ahead of others), and being winners (as apposed to being losers like others). These roads are laid down, heavily, when they often went unquestioned in our early years, and went on with over use to become much, traveled roads and even ruts (engrams in our brains).
So now, until we can reprogram our thinking brains (much like organic computers), we have our work ahead of us. We must continue towards thinking differently by investigating into better ways of thinking. But we must also refuse to continue thinking and acting upon them, or we must un-think these erroneous old ways of thinking, which then will fade from lack of use.
If we continue sleep walking in these old ruts of thought, they will only become progressively deeper and harder to climb out of. These are actually ruts of suffering. Rethinking thorough investigation (aka Mindfulness) IS a form of reprogramming.
I bet what you (anyone), yes I will really feel after investigation more closely, more deeply, will not be so much “special,” but rather “fortunate.” Because yes, you are very “Fortunate” to know that you are not simply what you were original taught to believe. Being a Buddha isn’t special, like unusual, since actually everyone IS a Buddha. Yet at the same time, it is certainly good fortune to know you are a Buddha, and not just a victim of the finite body/mind.
J: As you say, I think it wouldn't be such a problem if I was in a group of other people who were in the same boat as me. As it is now the people I have contact with (not many) definitely don't understand, to varying degrees, and it's hard to not feel special.
S9: I think too, that if opinions are changed into weapons by the people we are speaking with on any one subject, but particularly if these are subjects that we rely upon to create meaning and safety within our lives, well, we will all too easily drift into fight mode.
We will then go on to protect (defend) ourselves by proving these others to be less than we are, and use pejorative terms like stupid, weak, or even crazy against them to explain them away, and to make them seem less dangerous to us.
But isn’t this is the very definition of elitism?
And:
If you think about it, elitism is a bit like throwing lighter fluid on the flames of contention.
Of course we all do this in a “Knee jerk” fashion, most times. It is just one more thing we must rethink ourselves away from, thereby protecting ourselves and others away from the flames of contention.
If there is a savior in this world, something that can stop some of the suffering, it has to be wisdom.
In my way of thinking: Wisdom is the “Yellow Brick Road, which leads straight and true towards Transcendence.
Peace and love,
S9/Leslie
There are three kinds of people who cannot attain Nirvana as long as they have this traits( in this life and next)
1. Those with mental illnesses ( mental illnesses which renders the sufferer unable to control their mind)
2. Those too lazy to practice
3. Those who are ignorant of the Triple-Gem