Bardo climax: Samsara & Nirvana?

milkmoth

I've been reading a lot of Trungpa. He goes on about the bardo experience. Supposedly it's a peak of realization that can happen in any of the 6 worlds.

He said that Bardo is all there is to a peak experience... that Nirvana and Samsara are always together and cannot exist without each other. Because Samsara exists Nirvana exists - and visa versa.

I can so relate with this...

For some reason, everytime I have one of those beautiful magical experiences it is also accompanied by the "devil at the door". The "devil" is any kind of confused phenomena... chaos, depression, voices, negative visions, etc.

At the same time... Nirvana also happens simultaneously side by side. Bardo.

Do they ALWAYS have to oppose each other? Is this the essence of the bardo experience? A separation and dynamic opposition of Samsara and Nirvana? Like 2 sides of a coin?

I always find myself wondering what Nirvana would be like without Samsara? It would be so beautiful!!!

It's almost like it can never be dead quiet... as soon as you have that moment of complete stillness and silence of Nirvana... Samsara is there to remind you that the world is not JUST Nirvana but Samsara too.

What is the essence of Samsara? Is there one? What is the essence of Nirvana?

Can we only find out when these bardo experiences happen? Like HOT and COLD water splashed on us simultaneously.

Thanks.

federica

"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same....."

From Kipling's 'IF'....

He got that right.
The point is to not see them as opposing factions of the same state. The point is to accept them both, as they are, because they are what they are, as they are, because.

They are.

Life is dud. So what? hang around, it will change.
Life is wow. So what? Hang around, it will change.

Simple.

milkmoth

Yeah... I guess. What interests me is that last part where experience and non-experience rub so close together. Pow. You can't get rid of it. Dough!

Here are some pictures I thought might represent a bardo experience as samsara and nirvana oppose each other.

pineblossom

milkmoth wrote: »

Can we only find out when these bardo experiences happen? Like HOT and COLD water splashed on us simultaneously.

Thanks.

You have to remember that things like 'nivana', 'samsara', 'emptiness', 'bardo' and such like, are our limited way of talking about particular experiences which cannot adequately be described. What we generally do is create a duality in our thinking - we like this, we don't like that. So when we hear words like, 'nivana' or 'samsara', we attached further labels thereby marking out designations which we characterize in our own mind according to our preconceived beliefs and prejudices.

But generally speaking samsara is the continual cycle of rebirth. Nivana is cessation of that cycle. Bardo is the state in between.

shenpennangwa

Here is a very good, comprehensive commentary on the six bardos.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=85&-Token.Action=Search&image=1

milkmoth

Here is a very good, comprehensive commentary on the six bardos.

That's priceless. Thanks. Ooh. Can't wait.

pineblossom

milkmoth wrote: »

Here are some pictures I thought might represent a bardo experience as samsara and nirvana oppose each other.

Hmmm .... reminds me of something .... let's see .... where is my dualist mind when I need it .... it's around here someplace ... Ah, Yes, I'll just put it on ...

It's TV! :wtf:

milkmoth

I know it's almost herecy for some people to believe that there is Samsara and Nirvana. That they even exist... because thinking about them are basic discriminations.

But it can't be helped... that's the defenition of a bardo, the nature of existance. Nothing and Something. It's inescapable. Zero can't exist without One. One can't exist without Zero. Thinking about them... is not IT. It's what happens when you don't think about them... that's the Bardo experience I'm talking about. They rub so close together until it climaxes. Bardo!

RichardH

milkmoth wrote: »

I know it's almost herecy for some people to believe that there is Samsara and Nirvana. That they even exist... because thinking about them are basic discriminations.

But it can't be helped... that's the defenition of a bardo, the nature of existence. Nothing and Something. It's inescapable. Zero can't exist without One. One can't exist without Zero. Thinking about them... is not IT. It's what happens when you don't think about them... that's the Bardo experience I'm talking about. They rub so close together until it climaxes. Bardo!

-nirvana (- negative), timeless non-existence, the subjective pole of awareness.

-samsara (+positive), endless existence, the objective pole of awareness


Nirvana and samsara are the back and front of one coin, you.

karmadorje

That which is experiencing these various states of happiness and suffering is what needs to be investigated. Meditation experiences will come and go. There is nothing reliable about them. Moreover, as Karmapa would say: "Deep dharma, deep trouble". Whenever you churn the depths of samsara with wisdom, all sorts of trials will come your way. Isn't it exhausting to always discriminate "This is good", "This is bad" and set out to gather experiences of one and avoid experiences of the other? As Trungpa wisely stresses, boredom is your friend. Simple, unapologetic, majestic boredom.

Enlightenment is not an experience. It is the unobscured nature of the observer denuded of confusion and taken to the greatest scope. Hence when you talk of how wonderful it would be to have nirvana without samsara... perhaps from a certain vantage point, the whole display of samsara and nirvana is in itself pure, beautiful and perfect just as it is.

milkmoth

As Trungpa wisely stresses, boredom is your friend. Simple, unapologetic, majestic boredom.

That's one of my favorite wisdoms from Trungpa too. If you're not bored you know something is wrong.

Thanks. That helps.