kindness

est4elvis

Another question

If you do something nice for somebody but then feel good that you did that nice thing, is that still classed as kindness + compassion? In my book last night it said kindness for others should come second nature just like breathing. So then surely you shouldn't really feel good about it because it would be something you would automatically do without thinking about it?

I only ask cos I did something nice for someone this morning (which I would have done anyway just cos its in my nature, not just cos of Buddhism) but then felt good about doing it + didn't know if that was ok?

Barber

Ok im not a Buddhist as i have only just started to look into this but surely feeling good about helping someone out is not a crime. Could Buddhism be a little too judgemental on every action we do?

ShiftPlusOne

'course it's ok... as long as you don't do it TO feel good and as long as you don't do it to expecting something in return. When you help others, you feel good... that's just how it is.

ShiftPlusOne

Barber, Buddhism and judging don't go together very well. Being mindful is not the same as being judgemental. A lot of people act without thinking and a little bit of consideration here and there goes a long way.

est4elvis

i don't think it meant to be judgemental about it it was just saying in this book that if you do an act of kindness then it should be the same as if you were to brush your teeth for example or i don't know eat! im not very good at explaining it but you get my meaning. it wasn't necessarily saying u shouldn't feel good for it, just that it should be a normal thing for you so then i thought myself that if it were a normal thing then you wouldn't feel good because you wouldn't feel good just for completing an everyday task. it would just be another thing for you to do.

Mountains

Nobody is judging you except you. One has to look at the motivations for one's own actions. As noted, if you do something kind in order to feel better about yourself, or expecting something in return, that's the ego trying to inflate itself. Kindness just is.

Barber

I agree with the kindness just is.

ShiftPlusOne

est4elvis...

The data collected in this series of experiments suggests that meditative practice is effective in generating neuroplasticity, inhibiting destructive emotions and fostering positive ones. Standard magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machines are widely used in hospitals and offer a graphically detailed snapshot of the structure of the brain. The more sophisticated functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) machines provide an ongoing video record of how specific zones of the brain dynamically change their level of activity from moment to moment. Conventional MRI lays bare the brain's structures, while fMRI reveals how those structures interact as they function.
During the meditative state the brain shows very high levels of activity in the left prefrontal cortex region. This was first demonstrated by fMRI in the meditating mind of Lama …ser in his role as test subject whilst in the 'compassion' meditative state (Goleman, 2003). In compassion meditation, the meditator focuses on compassionate thoughts for specific individuals, other species or for all of humankind. This Tibetan Buddhist monk's left prefrontal brain lit up to a level indicating a very high level of 'happiness'. Even when he was not meditating, the left prefrontal cortex showed unusually high activity. Such investigations provide support for practical neuroplasticity - the ability of the brain to be molded by experience - and force scientists to rethink their understanding of the human brain and it ability to be rewired for health. Importantly, these preliminary tests show that as well as helping people manage destructive emotions like anger, hatred and jealousy, meditation may also have profound effects on promoting happiness. Not long ago the prevailing scientific dogma was that people have a preset capacity for happiness being determined by biology and changing little whether a person wins the lottery or experiences a debilitating accident. The thinking was that if someone was prone to unhappiness and has more activity in their right prefrontal cortex, winning the lottery might temporarily spike activity in the left cortex, but it will not tip them into the company of happier, left-brain people in the long run. It now seems that happiness is not as static as previously believed. The human community at large can benefit from classical mental techniques which produce greater self-control and help cultivate an internal calmness and happiness. This may even be our natural state if only we can shut out layers of emotional turmoil and redundant mind chatter.
It is possible, however, that a naturally happy temperament, a monk's stress-free ordered lifestyle, or the result of a disciplined rigorous meditation protocol was responsible for the shift in …ser's emotional temperament. That years of meditation in a closed community are not needed to experience positive effects, was shown with a series of studies (Davidson et al, 2003) with employees at Promega - a biotech firm in Wisconsin. Prior to the study, it was established that the workers exhibited high levels of right-brain activity and reported feeling 'stressed-out' and unhappy with their jobs. After eight weeks of meditation training and practice, the activity in the left side of their brains increased significantly, and the workers reported feeling happier, with a renewed sense of enthusiasm for their life and work. The control group showed no change. While more long-term research is required to eliminate confounding factors, the findings are very optimistic in that meditation practice can alter an individual's emotional setting towards the positive, which may then become the mind's default state.

...(snip)...
The EEG findings reinforced the previous data in that …ser's brain shift during compassion reflected extreme wellbeing, reinforcing scientifically a general acknowledgement that volunteer work or assisting friends in need, benefits not only the receiver but also the person giving it. The very act of concern for others' wellbeing, it seems, creates a greater state of wellbeing within oneself. Likewise, it seems, that the person doing a meditation on compassion for others is also the immediate beneficiary (see section 'Meditation and the Immune System). It is surprising therefore, that compassion is an emotional state which is, for the most part, ignored by modern psychologists - we may be well served to focus less on what can go wrong and highlight physiological states when things go right. Psychology's negative spin may reflect the lead of medicine, which has traditionally focused on disease rather than on health.
If the main motivation for the practice of compassion is self-interest - then this is an important evolutionary insight. Another insight comes from the realization that individuals who use humor to cope with stress have a more resilient immune system and age more gracefully. Moreover, psycho-immunologists have confirmed what we all know instinctively, that the immune system is boosted by helping others and, ingeniously, just hearing about other people's good work appears to boost our immunity. The scientific evidence again confirms the point that not only are we physiologically constructed to need others, we are also constructed to want to be needed (Pollard, 2003b). That is, during critical periods in our evolution, Homo sapiens' social drive for personal survival became interdependent with our collective survival. Put in anthropomorphic terms 'our immune system knows that helping others ultimately helps our own wellbeing' - the result 'I feel less fear, more happiness' (Pollard, 2002b). This biological insight also seems to be the common substance of all religious faiths, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or any other. In all cases, religious faith is preoccupied with rendering service to the Deity and fellow human beings. And in the final analysis, we do know that people who score high on measures of positive emotions also report engaging in more altruistic actions.

http://www.eubios.info/EJ141/ej141j.htm

What that means is that kindness as a lifestyle actually increases your happiness permanently, unlike winning the lottery or other desire satisfying forms of happiness. So yeah, helping others does make you happier ESPECIALLY if it's an everyday thing. Not only that, it boosts your immune system.

est4elvis

I definitely didn't do it to feel good or to help myself; it was purely unselfish + just what I had to do cos somebody needed help. Well good then, at least I know I'm on the right track still.

nanadhaja

I don't think feeling good about doing good is wrong.Pehaps you are seeing that generosity towards others has its own rewards for you.I agree withShiftPlusOne.It is your intent that is important.If you do something good so that you will receive something in return your intent may not be so pure(couldn't think of another word).Before I ordained I always gave alms food to the monks when I was in Thailand.I always felt good after this.I gave because I understood why monks do alms rounds,not because I wanted to make merit,and also partly out of respect for the culture of the country in which I was staying.I see no harm in feeling good about it.In fact maybe this feeling that you get is due to the purity of your intention.If you do good so others see you do good,I am not so sure that the feeling you would get would be the same.
With metta

est4elvis

ShiftPlusOne wrote: »

est4elvis...


http://www.eubios.info/EJ141/ej141j.htm

What that means is that kindness as a lifestyle actually increases your happiness permanently, unlike winning the lottery or other desire satisfying forms of happiness. So yeah, helping others does make you happier ESPECIALLY if it's an everyday thing. Not only that, it boosts your immune system.

ahhhhh "lightbulb switches on". I get it now. Which is actually the basis of the whole theory is it not? How helping others ultimately helps yourslef. So stupid question really should have known the answer to this already!

thanks though

est4elvis

nanadhaja wrote: »

I don't think feeling good about doing good is wrong.Pehaps you are seeing that generosity towards others has its own rewards for you.I agree withShiftPlusOne.It is your intent that is important.If you do something good so that you will receive something in return your intent may not be so pure(couldn't think of another word).Before I ordained I always gave alms food to the monks when I was in Thailand.I always felt good after this.I gave because I understood why monks do alms rounds,not because I wanted to make merit,and also partly out of respect for the culture of the country in which I was staying.I see no harm in feeling good about it.In fact maybe this feeling that you get is due to the purity of your intention.If you do good so others see you do good,I am not so sure that the feeling you would get would be the same.
With metta

that is a nice thought + actually makes me feel better cos no one except for me + the other person knew so I wasn't expecting anything for myself. + yes probably cos I did feel good it made me feel like it wasn't if you get what i mean.

+ I have always felt good for doing things for others, but now i am trying to get in to buddhism, it is making me look at everything in a different way, including doing nice things for people.

thanks ((hugs)))

Rob3rt

Let us consider a (very limited and possibly flawed) example:

You hold the door open for someone following you down the corridoor, afterwards he/she does not thank you, you feel:

a) Animosity toward them "didnt even thank me after I put myself out"
b) You carry on aknowledging the situation, aknowledging your feelings, but not adding to them (maybe you are feeling good that you were kind, maybe you feel totally indifferent).

If the answer is a) then you realise, you held that door open with the motivation (at least partly and subconsiouly) of expecting gratitude, and hence expecting to be made to feel good.

If you answered b) then you were (possibly) simply kind with no expectations.

If we try to analyse this, whilst acting out of kindness helps us, the motivation behind the kindness is more important. Whilst we might initially help others out of a desire to derive happiness for ourselves, almost a brute force approach to get the possitivity flowing, we will likely take the possitive mental states further and develop the capacity to act out of kindness for the pure sake of kindness. What I am trying to say here is (in my interpretation, and limited teaching) acting out of kindness is possibly "better" in the sense of the second option, but the first option is still perfectly okay as a means to an end, as long as not viewed as an end in itself.

I understand this is very simplistic and black and white and doesnt explore the nuances that every situation offers up, but its the best food for thought that I can contribute here.

Since kindness comes from possitive mental states, and helps to maintain these possitive mental states, then you will of course feel good sometimes through the sheer act of giving.

GuyC

est4elvis wrote: »

In my book last night it said kindness for others should come second nature just like breathing.

That is an ideal that we should work towards. But don't be disheartened if, from time to time, you still don't particularly want to be kind without some effort. For many of us I imagine that kindness does come naturally occassionally...but greed, anger, irritation, ill-will also come naturally. This is where the four types of Right Effort come in:

1) To guard against unwholesome mental states which have not yet arisen
2) To abandon unwholesome mental states which have already arisen
3) To arouse wholesome mental states which have not yet arisen
4) To maintain wholesome mental states which have already arisen

Even if you do something kind for someone else for the purpose of making yourself feel good, I think that act shouldn't be disparaged. It is much more wholesome than not doing that kind act at all. We all have to start somewhere and, since we are not yet enlightened, there will often be some self-interest involved in our motivations. There is nothing wrong with this, in my opinion.

Subjectivity9

est4elvis,

Although being kind comes naturally to us at times, it is also a skill that can be developed. Living well is a skill, which the Buddha advises us to do.

Since everyone wants to be happy, and the skill of being kind creates happiness for both the doer of kindness, and the receiver of kindness, it just makes good sense to practice such behavior.

Feeling good about being kind is a kindness to yourself. It is probably a wise act to be kind to yourself, as well as others. Smile!

After all, if you practice being overly judgmental of yourself, which is an unkind act, how long will you have energy enough to be continuously kind to others?

Peace and love,
S9/Leslie

BonsaiDoug

I recently had the opportunity to speak with a Tibetan monk (Venerable Tenzin Yignyen) who was in town creating a mandala.

One piece of advice he gave to the crowd watching: Every day make an effort to be kind to one person. And if that opportunity does not arise, then at least do no harm.

TreeLuvr87

Two pieces of advice:
1) It would be TOTALLY SWEET if it were as easy for me to do something nice to someone as it is to brush my teeth, and sometimes it does seem like my Nature (because it actually is, once I shed all the other things I think define my nature), and that will probably happen if you follow the path of Buddhism. However, don't expect that just because you tell yourself, "HEY! This should come second nature!" that it will happen overnight or even anytime soon. Just stick to the path, keep one foot in front of the other, and you will see yourself becoming more skillful.
2) Don't forget that your emotions and feelings do NOT define you or who you are. We can have many different reactions to the same event, depending on a ton of other factors. So don't worry too much about how you feel, just feel it and let it go, move on to the next feeling.