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Yes of course. The practice involves observations of one's mind. I based my post on both what I have observed in my own mind, and what I have observed in others.
For example, I myself began lifting because of lust. In addition, I have observed that others who lift do so because of lust. I trust that I am correct in this observation, even if I can't go inside their minds.
Yes of course. The practice involves observations of one's mind. I based my post on both what I have observed in my own mind, and what I have observed in others.
For example, I myself began lifting because of lust. In addition, I have observed that others who lift do so because of lust. I trust that I am correct in this observation, even if I can't go inside their minds.
It's perfectly understandable to offer advice culled from your own experience. After all, that is where all really honest advice comes from. But when you find yourself trying to control the trajectory of another person's life, there is some sort of attachment there.
It's perfectly understandable to offer advice culled from your own experience. After all, that is where all really honest advice comes from. But when you find yourself trying to control the trajectory of another person's life, there is some sort of attachment there.
lol i think i do have attachments regarding getting people to see things my way. but if I feel that I need to strongly recommend a certain course of action, I will do so. If I feel that I need to point out errors in reasoning, I will do so.
lol i think i do have attachments regarding getting people to see things my way. but if I feel that I need to strongly recommend a certain course of action, I will do so. If I feel that I need to point out errors in reasoning, I will do so.
That's only natural. But you've given yourself the chance to come to your own conclusions based on your own experience with weightlifting. Why not allow the OP (or anyone else) that same opportunity? (And, for the record, it actually wasn't your posts so much that I was referring to, questionful. I found your posts pretty balanced.) He may come across the same pitfalls. He may not. He may, in fact, find that even the pitfalls associated with lust aren't that big a deal for him.* Life and its people are surprising like that. I've certainly given plenty of well-intentioned warnings to people based on my own limited experience, only for it to turn out if was not really a problem for the person in the end.
You can look at this from a variety of different views and extents of buddhism. I myself personally look to how a monk or the buddha himself would lead their life and go about the situation in their own manner. It is true the buddha suggested to some people to become a monk or a nun, he also suggested to other people to lead a lay life, obviously as certain aspects of the path would not suit some people.
From the people who I have met, friends and myself which do or have lifted weights, it has for the most part been a very egotistic and superficial activity. I just cannot imagine the buddha, the dalai lama or ajahn chah heading to the gym for an hour session lifting weights. To me, it does not help to head down the dharma path and in fact would hinder my progress. I am not saying that lifting weights is a negative thing, because it obviously has many great aspects, but for the progression of ones spirituality I do not see it to be of any use but a mere hindrance.
You can look at this from a variety of different views and extents of buddhism. I myself personally look to how a monk or the buddha himself would lead their life and go about the situation in their own manner. It is true the buddha suggested to some people to become a monk or a nun, he also suggested to other people to lead a lay life, obviously as certain aspects of the path would not suit some people.
From the people who I have met, friends and myself which do or have lifted weights, it has for the most part been a very egotistic and superficial activity. I just cannot imagine the buddha, the dalai lama or ajahn chah heading to the gym for an hour session lifting weights. To me, it does not help to head down the dharma path and in fact would hinder my progress. I am not saying that lifting weights is a negative thing, because it obviously has many great aspects, but for the progression of ones spirituality I do not see it to be of any use but a mere hindrance.
Nicely said
In my opinion, weight lifting are good for exercises and to keep fit. But if overdone it'll surely be a hindrance to practice of meditation.
Lord Buddha do not have to exercise or lift weights and he already have supra-normal strength. Even those enlightened disciples have the same
lol. What has astonished me is to see these monks live long lives and age very well for the majority. They do not exercise at all really, they do a lot of walking and construction work which does help with fitness, but they do little general exercise. They also eat one meal a day most of the time and get a lot less nutrition than the average lay person. This must be a direct reaction from being so peaceful and compassionate in ones life. It just shows that keeping the mind healthy may be more beneficial than running daily or going to the gym...
You can look at this from a variety of different views and extents of buddhism. I myself personally look to how a monk or the buddha himself would lead their life and go about the situation in their own manner. It is true the buddha suggested to some people to become a monk or a nun, he also suggested to other people to lead a lay life, obviously as certain aspects of the path would not suit some people.
From the people who I have met, friends and myself which do or have lifted weights, it has for the most part been a very egotistic and superficial activity. I just cannot imagine the buddha, the dalai lama or ajahn chah heading to the gym for an hour session lifting weights. To me, it does not help to head down the dharma path and in fact would hinder my progress. I am not saying that lifting weights is a negative thing, because it obviously has many great aspects, but for the progression of ones spirituality I do not see it to be of any use but a mere hindrance.
To be devoted to the pure progress of your spirituality is just as ego driven as wanting to lift weights to improve your body. So I see both sides as gaining something beneficial. There is nothing wrong with the weight lifter who bulks up to look good and there is nothing wrong with the spiritual guru who chooses to not lift weights and meditate instead.
For me though, I do see the action of weight lifting as spiritual. It is physical training that while can be challenging is beneficial. When one endures hard physical training that will strengthen many things in their life, not just their body. The shaolin monks also do "physical meditation" which is different from stationary meditation. Their martial art forms and training are very much a spiritual path towards enlightenment for them.
To follow the buddhist path correctly and in the most beneficial manner is to want nothing and strive for nothing. We all know this can lead to attachment, clinging suffering. Ajahn Chah famously stated that to reach nibanna and to fully awaken the mind, you must not desire to in the first place, then he laughed.
I am not saying that lifting weights is a stupid or negative thing on the whole, far from it. But it is quite obvious that it does not really fall into the buddhist way of thinking what so ever. You do not need to be bulky to be happy, or shouldn't for that matter. You do not need to lift weights to stay alive or to be healthy, but you choose to. It is building a state of false happiness around an impermanent image of oneself.
When you want nothing and strive for nothing you will get nothing. You will be a bum or a leech. And even if you're wise and teach good teachings on the street, hardly any will take you seriously because you're a bum without money. That is not practical.
Buddhist teachings need to be applied in a practical approach on how to improve our modern lives. That means not to take it all literally. Sure everything is temporary, but there are things we must do to in order to function. We need health and money in order to progress in society. Building muscle helps boost metabolism, among many other useful things. And if you live in America with all this crap processed food we have, that is very useful.
dear stupidly and arrogantly self named zen master:
The phrase "it makes me feel good" is so entirely stupid I just plain am unwilling to go any further.
Well good for you.
Yeah, and I accept my desire to butt rape little kids as being much better than butt raping the unborn. I don't care what anyone thinks. I just accept my desire and declare myself the zen master.
Are you twelve? Seriously, how does one get this stuck on stupid?
having a bad day?? Being a buddhist doesn´t mean you have to go all ugly, (in your words too mate tone em done a bit) not washing not shaving, not exercising, not eating, not having a life...i´m still just a guy of 26 years old in a western consumer society.
The forum name has nothing to do with being an actual Zen master, its a line from a movie, and I´ve been using it as a screenname for about eight years now. So i´m sure not gonna change it.
if buddhism IS concerned about becoming a total not caring douche it´s not for me and i´m continuing doing my own thing. Just like the Buddha himself said and did. I don´t smoke, drink, or do drugs, i´m nice to people and I try to help. I have respect for myself, for the people near me and the elderly. I donate some money to people on the streets, and sometimes I give them food. I meditate almost daily.
You´re proberly the kind of fanatic who takes every word ever written down about buddhism literary. So I hope you will find peace sitting alone in your empty house, meditating into an allout headache because you think it is the right way, with no stuff, each and every day torturing yourself because you think YOU have the only way to happiness and contenment. Terrible.
By god, you are judmental, and thereby everything buddhism is not. I´ve got a college degree and a proper job. Do you really think I go but-raping little children because I just stated I don´t care what people think if I excersise too much or not. you really think people are that deranged?
The one that calls me an infant comes up with connections in his arguments that makes him look like.......well you can fill this in yourself...
I dont see a problem with this weight lifting business as a whole, its not the weight lifting that you may want to think about, but more the motivation, the reason why you want to lift weights. Whether in a Buddhist sense or not. As far as I see it, it a good oppertunity to practice some body awareness and mindfulness in your everyday activities.
To follow the buddhist path correctly and in the most beneficial manner is to want nothing and strive for nothing.
That may be true with regards to things like lifting weights but not really true with regards to practicing Buddhism. The proper application of "Right Effort" involves lots of striving.
"And what, monks, is right effort?
"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
"He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."— SN 45.8
The Characterization of Right Effort:
Striving for replacing wrong view with right view, is Right Effort!
Striving for replacing wrong motivation with right motivation, is Right Effort!
Striving for replacing wrong speech with right speech, is Right Effort!
Striving for replacing wrong action with right action, is Right Effort!
Striving for replacing wrong livelihood with right livelihood, is Right Effort!
Striving for replacing wrong effort with right effort, is Right Effort!
Striving for replacing wrong awareness with right awareness, is Right Effort!
Striving for replacing wrong concentration w. right concentration, is Right Effort!
If you are planning to train to get a healthier way of life, then go for it. If you are going to be a ego trainer. Don't bother.
I used to train in public gyms and was tired of seeing people try to lift weight they couldn't properly keep strict form on doing. Purely for ego boosting infront of others, Especially so when a beautiful women would walk into the room.
I went from being obese to squatting and benching more than my own bodyweight in only five month. I tortured myself into getting into shape. Loved every minute of it. It was nearly a year after that I got into Buddhism and begun to be introspective. I begun to lose myself like the other people who trained in the same gym as me purely to boost their ego in front of others.
You can pretty yourself up all you want on the outside, but the ugly inside will soon catch up if you become to attatched to your physical appearance.
Thanks Tom, I've helped train some friends in the past, and helped them keep a humble attitude towards it after my own experiences of it changing me.
Getting fit and healthy is great n' all but, in my situation at the time I was at a point of betraying my own principals because of the "new me" I had become, I certainly wasn't going to allow myself to do it. I began to humble myself and look inward. I must say I'm very glad I did.
Yes I in fact had a similar experience. I had this beer gut from uni, (maybe you have read already) and I lost that over a couple of months and began to bulk muscle. I noticed how superficial and egotistic I was becoming, how I would judge myself and others more. I then realised true lasting happiness cannot come from external sources and stopped going to the gym :P
Very similar to me, rather my weight issue was due to my deep depression. Skin disease and the inability to speak, born with a speech disorder really was a downer for me.
Drove me to attempted suicides and self harming for many years. Eventually being caught trying to kill myself by my older brother got me out of that dreadful funk I was stuck in.
I gave myself a ultimatum, Get fit or cease to exist. I went from weighing 112KG to 60KG in just under 5 month. I worked myself to the bone, quite literally.
I was only 16 at the time. - I now do barefoot running and have been toying with the idea of taking up capoeira lately too.
wow,I have a skin condition also but it is not so bad anymore. That has been a bane of my life for some aspects. I also suffered from hypochondria to the extent of near suicide also. Convinced I was dying anyway nearly did it myself.. Glad to hear you have turned full circle though, could have happened another way so it is great
Although I've had a pretty dark past, I wouldn't change a single bit of it. It's made me who I am today, and to appriciate the little things I see most people in day to day life take for granted.
For example the ability to talk, people who never shut up and say things so carelessly is saddening to see
I pretty much choose to be a mute nowadays, The saying "Say nothing unless it improves on silence" springs to mind whenever I hear someone say something idiotic and thoughtless.
Indeed it is good I have come round' full circle, I've helped many friends after having first looked within to help myself. Helped friends battle their sucidial tendancies and depression. As-well as a friend who was having trouble after quitting drugs.
Well you really have managed to turn a negative situation into a positive one and further more help those around you due to this.
Yes the buddha has something like, 'if you cannot improve on the silence then remain silent'. Practicing skillful speech is something very lost to many people, including myself a lot of the time. It is all too easy to say bad things or silly things.
I myself had a long period of substance experimentation and abuse. I actually had no problems with stopping when it came down to it, I think because I moved so far away from it all I was not phased.
I don't smoke or drink because I quite frankly, Can't afford it and secondly I just don't see the point in it, I've drunk and do drink very lightly on special occassions, Weddings and social events like birthdays. I'll have one or two beers just to go with the tradition of celebrating.
The only drug I like is my music. I never leave the house without my iPod and my monster beats earphones in my pocket.
Since I am pretty much a mute, I let my music entertain me for the hours on my bus journeys. Or when I'm not doing anything I'll just lay down and relax to music.
I feel as though I am taking this topic off the rails it's meant to be kept on, If so I apologise.
EDIT: Found what I was previously asking for.
Buddhist teachings need to be applied in a practical approach on how to improve our modern lives.
that's true. But that shouldn't be taken to mean "we shouldn't bother trying to fix problems that are very common." Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's not unskillful. I think it is very important to be very careful not to get sucked into modern culture. It is difficult. But in the end, those who lived unskillfully will have payed the price, and those who lived skillfully will have reaped the benefits.
Enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the path that leads to destruction, and many will enter by it.
I think it would be difficult for me to get you to see weightlifting the way I do, so I won't bother. But please, keep an eye out for problems in your life whose cause you can trace back to weightlifting. That way, if you are right, you will benefit, and if I am right, you will benefit.
We have a family membership at the ymca and my family gets mad at me when I don't use it is the main thing. I'm not sure whether or not I think it will get in the way of my path. As I said earlier, i'm gonna try it for a while and if I find that it leads to clinging than I will stop. Then again, things like marriage are OK for a buddhist, even though it's very easy to cling, but the purpose is to do so without clinging. So too can you lift weights without clinging to the results. I think.
Journey - If you read my posts above, I can summise now why such a dramatic change in my physical appearance boosted my ego and made me attatch cling to vanity.
Simply put? it was because I wasn't ready mentally for that kind of change, I almost lost myself and who I was because of it. It is very do-able to train hard, keep fit and not be egotistical about gains and clinging to them so-long as you are ready and prepared for if or when them thoughts occur, you know how to identify them and deal with them.
I've begun training my outside after training my mind once more because now I'm prepared for it and I know what to expect. It may be easier for me than you purely because I've been there, done it, and know what to expect. But I've all the confidence in the world in you that you can handle it too.
Seeing people ego train is horrid, I honestly cringe. Funny enough its bad and much much worse for your body to ego train than to train properly too! You get less gains and only make yourselve tire quicker and not get as much work done for it!
'When seeing a form with the eye, one becomes neither attracted by any pleasing form,
nor repelled by any displeasing form! When having heard a sound with the ear, one
becomes neither entranced by any charming sound, nor opposed by any horrid sound!
Having sniffed a smell with the nose, one becomes neither fascinated by any lovely smell,
nor held off by any detestable smell! Having tasted a flavour with the tongue, one becomes
neither captivated by any likeable taste, nor rejected by unlikable taste! When having felt
a touch with the body, one becomes neither allured by any pleasant touch, nor repelled by
any unpleasant touch! When having experienced whatever mental state with the mind,
one becomes neither obsessed by any agreeable mental phenomenon, nor rebuffed by
any disagreeable mental phenomenon whatsoever...'
Yes I was going to say that you lowered yourself to a level of judgment and unskillful speech, but then decided not to as I prefer not to judge and find faults myself :P oops, just have
Comments
For example, I myself began lifting because of lust. In addition, I have observed that others who lift do so because of lust. I trust that I am correct in this observation, even if I can't go inside their minds.
From the people who I have met, friends and myself which do or have lifted weights, it has for the most part been a very egotistic and superficial activity. I just cannot imagine the buddha, the dalai lama or ajahn chah heading to the gym for an hour session lifting weights. To me, it does not help to head down the dharma path and in fact would hinder my progress. I am not saying that lifting weights is a negative thing, because it obviously has many great aspects, but for the progression of ones spirituality I do not see it to be of any use but a mere hindrance.
Nicely said
In my opinion, weight lifting are good for exercises and to keep fit. But if overdone it'll surely be a hindrance to practice of meditation.
Lord Buddha do not have to exercise or lift weights and he already have supra-normal strength. Even those enlightened disciples have the same
To be devoted to the pure progress of your spirituality is just as ego driven as wanting to lift weights to improve your body. So I see both sides as gaining something beneficial. There is nothing wrong with the weight lifter who bulks up to look good and there is nothing wrong with the spiritual guru who chooses to not lift weights and meditate instead.
For me though, I do see the action of weight lifting as spiritual. It is physical training that while can be challenging is beneficial. When one endures hard physical training that will strengthen many things in their life, not just their body. The shaolin monks also do "physical meditation" which is different from stationary meditation. Their martial art forms and training are very much a spiritual path towards enlightenment for them.
I am not saying that lifting weights is a stupid or negative thing on the whole, far from it. But it is quite obvious that it does not really fall into the buddhist way of thinking what so ever. You do not need to be bulky to be happy, or shouldn't for that matter. You do not need to lift weights to stay alive or to be healthy, but you choose to. It is building a state of false happiness around an impermanent image of oneself.
Buddhist teachings need to be applied in a practical approach on how to improve our modern lives. That means not to take it all literally. Sure everything is temporary, but there are things we must do to in order to function. We need health and money in order to progress in society. Building muscle helps boost metabolism, among many other useful things. And if you live in America with all this crap processed food we have, that is very useful.
having a bad day?? Being a buddhist doesn´t mean you have to go all ugly, (in your words too mate tone em done a bit) not washing not shaving, not exercising, not eating, not having a life...i´m still just a guy of 26 years old in a western consumer society.
The forum name has nothing to do with being an actual Zen master, its a line from a movie, and I´ve been using it as a screenname for about eight years now. So i´m sure not gonna change it.
if buddhism IS concerned about becoming a total not caring douche it´s not for me and i´m continuing doing my own thing. Just like the Buddha himself said and did. I don´t smoke, drink, or do drugs, i´m nice to people and I try to help. I have respect for myself, for the people near me and the elderly. I donate some money to people on the streets, and sometimes I give them food. I meditate almost daily.
You´re proberly the kind of fanatic who takes every word ever written down about buddhism literary. So I hope you will find peace sitting alone in your empty house, meditating into an allout headache because you think it is the right way, with no stuff, each and every day torturing yourself because you think YOU have the only way to happiness and contenment. Terrible.
By god, you are judmental, and thereby everything buddhism is not. I´ve got a college degree and a proper job. Do you really think I go but-raping little children because I just stated I don´t care what people think if I excersise too much or not. you really think people are that deranged?
The one that calls me an infant comes up with connections in his arguments that makes him look like.......well you can fill this in yourself...
Take care, I wish you the best in life,
That may be true with regards to things like lifting weights but not really true with regards to practicing Buddhism. The proper application of "Right Effort" involves lots of striving.
I used to train in public gyms and was tired of seeing people try to lift weight they couldn't properly keep strict form on doing. Purely for ego boosting infront of others, Especially so when a beautiful women would walk into the room.
I went from being obese to squatting and benching more than my own bodyweight in only five month. I tortured myself into getting into shape. Loved every minute of it. It was nearly a year after that I got into Buddhism and begun to be introspective. I begun to lose myself like the other people who trained in the same gym as me purely to boost their ego in front of others.
You can pretty yourself up all you want on the outside, but the ugly inside will soon catch up if you become to attatched to your physical appearance.
D
Getting fit and healthy is great n' all but, in my situation at the time I was at a point of betraying my own principals because of the "new me" I had become, I certainly wasn't going to allow myself to do it. I began to humble myself and look inward. I must say I'm very glad I did.
D
Drove me to attempted suicides and self harming for many years. Eventually being caught trying to kill myself by my older brother got me out of that dreadful funk I was stuck in.
I gave myself a ultimatum, Get fit or cease to exist. I went from weighing 112KG to 60KG in just under 5 month. I worked myself to the bone, quite literally.
I was only 16 at the time. - I now do barefoot running and have been toying with the idea of taking up capoeira lately too.
D
For example the ability to talk, people who never shut up and say things so carelessly is saddening to see
I pretty much choose to be a mute nowadays, The saying "Say nothing unless it improves on silence" springs to mind whenever I hear someone say something idiotic and thoughtless.
Indeed it is good I have come round' full circle, I've helped many friends after having first looked within to help myself. Helped friends battle their sucidial tendancies and depression. As-well as a friend who was having trouble after quitting drugs.
D
Yes the buddha has something like, 'if you cannot improve on the silence then remain silent'. Practicing skillful speech is something very lost to many people, including myself a lot of the time. It is all too easy to say bad things or silly things.
I myself had a long period of substance experimentation and abuse. I actually had no problems with stopping when it came down to it, I think because I moved so far away from it all I was not phased.
The only drug I like is my music. I never leave the house without my iPod and my monster beats earphones in my pocket.
Since I am pretty much a mute, I let my music entertain me for the hours on my bus journeys. Or when I'm not doing anything I'll just lay down and relax to music.
I feel as though I am taking this topic off the rails it's meant to be kept on, If so I apologise.
EDIT: Found what I was previously asking for.
D
that's true. But that shouldn't be taken to mean "we shouldn't bother trying to fix problems that are very common." Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's not unskillful. I think it is very important to be very careful not to get sucked into modern culture. It is difficult. But in the end, those who lived unskillfully will have payed the price, and those who lived skillfully will have reaped the benefits. I think it would be difficult for me to get you to see weightlifting the way I do, so I won't bother. But please, keep an eye out for problems in your life whose cause you can trace back to weightlifting. That way, if you are right, you will benefit, and if I am right, you will benefit.
Simply put? it was because I wasn't ready mentally for that kind of change, I almost lost myself and who I was because of it. It is very do-able to train hard, keep fit and not be egotistical about gains and clinging to them so-long as you are ready and prepared for if or when them thoughts occur, you know how to identify them and deal with them.
I've begun training my outside after training my mind once more because now I'm prepared for it and I know what to expect. It may be easier for me than you purely because I've been there, done it, and know what to expect. But I've all the confidence in the world in you that you can handle it too.
Seeing people ego train is horrid, I honestly cringe. Funny enough its bad and much much worse for your body to ego train than to train properly too! You get less gains and only make yourselve tire quicker and not get as much work done for it!
Good luck with you training man, keep us posted.
D
'When seeing a form with the eye, one becomes neither attracted by any pleasing form,
nor repelled by any displeasing form! When having heard a sound with the ear, one
becomes neither entranced by any charming sound, nor opposed by any horrid sound!
Having sniffed a smell with the nose, one becomes neither fascinated by any lovely smell,
nor held off by any detestable smell! Having tasted a flavour with the tongue, one becomes
neither captivated by any likeable taste, nor rejected by unlikable taste! When having felt
a touch with the body, one becomes neither allured by any pleasant touch, nor repelled by
any unpleasant touch! When having experienced whatever mental state with the mind,
one becomes neither obsessed by any agreeable mental phenomenon, nor rebuffed by
any disagreeable mental phenomenon whatsoever...'
my own response could have been better...
Wasn't the wisest of responses.