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Heart Sutra
I heard that there is a sutra called Heart Sutra which describes the reality of nature in Madhyamika Tradition of Buddhism. If this is a sutra by Lord Buddha why is it not there in other traditions such as Theravadha?
Or is there an equivalen one?
Or is there an equivalen one?
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Comments
To elaborate I think if you were talking to your best friend who was a mahayana practitioner you could tell them in a sensitive way that you thought the heart sutra was hogwash. But on a public forum it is likely to cause hurt feelings and possibly a CF flame war.
Similarly a mahayana practioner might express to their friend who was a theravadan that they feel that the theravadin teaching is missing 2 turns of the wheel of dharma (prajnaparamita and buddha nature), but on a public forum such an assertion is likely to be flame bait.
Troll wisely or not at all
Oh and since the HS was not set in the Pali Canon it never entered into the practice lineage of the Theravadins. I am not sure the story of how the heart sutra came to Mahayana buddhism but probably some monk or other was giving those teachings and they eventually traveled outside of India.
My intention was to find out any equivalent teachings in other traditions
and read about them.
I am impressed by the ideas in the Heart Sutra.
The connection to Theravadin teaching is actually straightforward. It can be seen as another take on anatta, except that "emptiness" is generalized. Whereas anatta, says bodymind is without a permanent unchanging self essence, "Emptiness" is the recognition of that in "all Dharmas"."
You are very welcome.
There are a couple of really excellent commentaries available.
Essence of the Heart Sutra by the Dalai lama
and
The Heart of the Universe by Mu Soeng
I was going ask what are recommended books on this topic.
You answered before I asked.
I heard that there are several versions of Heart Sutra which differ in length.
Which is the most comprehensive one translated to english?
Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva
when practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita
perceives that all five skandhas are empty
and is saved from all suffering and distress.
Shariputra,
form does not differ from emptiness,
emptiness does not differ from form.
That which is form is emptiness,
that which is emptiness form.
The same is true of feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
Shariputra,
all dharmas are marked with emptiness;
they do not appear or disappear,
are not tainted or pure,
do not increase or decrease.
Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind;
no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch,
no object of mind;
no realm of eyes
and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness.
No ignorance and also no extinction of it,
and so forth until no old age and death
and also no extinction of them.
No suffering, no origination,
no stopping, no path, no cognition,
also no attainment with nothing to attain.
The Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita
and the mind is no hindrance;
without any hindrance no fears exist.
Far apart from every perverted view one dwells in Nirvana.
In the three worlds
all Buddhas depend on Prajna Paramita
and attain Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi.
Therefore know that Prajna Paramita
is the great transcendent mantra,
is the great bright mantra,
is the utmost mantra,
is the supreme mantra
which is able to relieve all suffering
and is true, not false.
So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra,
proclaim the mantra which says: gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.
I think the translation Richard posted is really great.
Its clear and concise and used in tandem with the commentaries I suggested before should be a great tool.
That was the answer I was looking for.
The Mahayana Heart sutra was composed a long time after the death of the Buddha and is supposed to have been spoken by a bodhisattva deity.
Its well worth reading the Pali Canon before looking at later interpretations and additions to the Buddha's words.
This sutta is particularly poignant :
With kind wishes to all,
Dazzle
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However the form has the concept of time in it.
I believe the concept of time is not real but an illusion.
Does anyone understand how the concept of time originating from emptiness?
What I was trying to understnad was that the concept of time cannot be an absolute truth, its must only be a conventional truth. If the concept of time is an absolute truth and it is a part of emptiness, emptiness can not be really empty.
I was wondering how the concept of time is originating from emptiness.
I agree that a grounding in the Suttas is important, and was given the Dharma name (Kojip) "Four Noble truths" by a Zen master who recognized the importance of that grounding. But your repeated Theravada is the true way posts that put down Mahayana are so unwise. It does not reflect well on the people you profess to follow. Ajahn Sumedho would never call into question key Mahayana Sutras like that, in fact he admires and shows respect for Mahayana Buddhists.
According to your posts you only recently came to the Thai Forest Tradition, after being unhappy with Tibetan Buddhism. Now you speak for Theravada, putting down Mahayana at every turn. Get over it.
- If the present and future depend on the past, then the present and the future would have existed in the past.
- If the present and the future did not exist there, how could the present and future be dependent on it?
- If they are not dependent upon the past, neither of the two would be established. Therefore neither the present nor the future would exist.
- By the same method, the other two divisions-past and future, upper, lower, middle,ect.,Unity, ect.,should be understood.
- A nonstatic time is not grasped. Nothing one could grasp as stationary time exists. If time is not grasped, how is it known?
- If time depends on an entity, then without an entity how could time exist? There is no existent entity.So how can time exist.
This is from Nagarjuna's The fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way. Jay Garfield translation. I am not claiming to have realized the emptiness of time but I have found this book to be a good place to start.-PWoah. Thanks for that.
Yes I'm aware that you are always speaking proudly here about your longterm 'connections' Richard.
Are you implying I'm sectarian? My post doesn't even mention Theravada, what's that got to do with anything. Its my own opinion, if that's alright with you... and you are not my teacher, thanks.
I suggest you examine the evidence of historians and do a little research before you trash my post. The sutra also says..." ..the holy Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva, the great being, spoke to the venerable Shariputra and said .."etc"
The sutra is supposed to be spoken by Avalokiteshvara - a deity .
If one looks in the earlier Pali Canon suttas one can see where ideas in some of the text may have originated.
After seeing you mentioning Theravada, I found this commentary on the Heart Sutra on a Theravada website. The author is a student of a Forest Tradition teacher.
http://www.theravada.ca/writings/69-heart-sutra-commentary-by-brian-ruhe-.html
To admonish me for mentioning any of this is getting worryingly fundamentalist in flavour. Please relax, be at ease, Richard dear, have a nice cup of tea and put your feet up for half an hour. As you so wisely said yourself "Get over it."
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Thanks for your contribution.
I have to read it several times and try to grasp the idea.
I recently bought the book The Central Philosophy of Buddhism
: A study on the Madhyamika System.
I hope to find similar line of thinking as it is also discusses about
Nagarjuna's understandings.
Evangelising Theravada? You're way off target in your opinions about me, that's not what I'm doing Richard. You forget that I was an offline Mahayana practitioner for most of my adult life and I am very grateful for some of the things I learned from respected teachers.
New Buddhist isn't, to my knowledge, meant to be an exclusively Mahayana forum however, so I think you need to be careful about appointing yourself chief of the Dharma police whilst trying, it seems to me, to hound me out of the forum, along with a certain TB person who likes to take a pop at me whenever he can. As for being 'disgusted' and a 'sick agenda', I recall a very crude remark you once made to me here on the lines that I must be boring in the sack, and I wonder about your priorities, Richard.
You know nothing about me, or my practice, so always be cautious at whom your 'being disgusted' is directed. It might be worthwhile examining those feelings carefully too.
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A vision of an angry little snappy dog with its teeth in a bone it can't let go of, just came into my mind.
You're wrong - and I've nothing to get over, your words don't mean anything to me, there's just the sound of the wind in the trees outside my window.
Sincerely hoping you have a nice, happy day (or night) Richard. I've got important things to attend to offline now, bye.
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Robot,
I would like to hear about your own understanding of emtiness of time as well.
sorry again.
The notions of then were then. Aint it something.
You have a good day as well.:)
Sorry I assumed that it would come to conflict well no actually I think that was a fear. But sorry I assumed so much rather than hear what you wanted. I would imagine that if buddha taught one disciple something, that that disciple understood very clearly and in a unique way. Even so by the power of the dharma (ok I am guessing a bit) perhaps the buddhist also influenced the other person in that same thrust though they may understand it differently. So I can see that now and I am glad Richard had some idea of Therevada to help see how the ideas of the heart sutra also influenced the Therevadans (I believe) and vice versa. Though each sees it with a unique focus and formulation. I hope you understand what I am saying.
I don't want to get involved in this controversy.
Although I am a therevada buddhist by birth,
I am open to interesting ideas in other traditions.
This is just frank talk, it shouldn't be uncomfortable.
I didn't know that the 'Heart Sutra' was such a controversal issue.
I believe that the way I asked the question was misleading.
I am sorry about that.
Lets just clear this up, lets address the issues around the OP. Buddhism has three main branches or streams, Theravada, Tibetan (Vajrayana), and Zen (Chan, Seon). Each stream has millions of practitioners. Two of these three branches of Buddhism practice with the Heart Sutra. There is nothing remotely "controversial" about the the Heart Sutra to these practitioners. It is only Controversial to some Theravadins. Now this should just be an issue for Theravadin Buddhists, or maybe an opportunity for sharing between traditions, but unfortunately, at least on internet fora, it is not. Some Theravadins have a firm view that their tradition is the True Way, and the others are not. They make a point of that.
There is also an unfortunate tendency with some practioners of Zen and Vajrayana to denegrate Theravada as "Hinayana", which can be interpreted as meaning little, minor, selfish, or otherwise lowly. So you can see that no one has cornered the market on sectarian crap.
If we are talking about the Heart Sutra though. The "Controversy" is only in the minds of some Theravadins.
I'm definately not intending to start an argument, and have you telling me I'm sectarian again - I'm just telling you what I was told myself, because you said Zen practised with the Heart Sutra.
I guess the best way for me to find out if branches of Soto Zen vary, would be to ask at the Zen Forum International website. Maybe I'll ask Ven Nonin in the 'Ask a Teacher' section there.
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1. Richard, I think you misspoke. the three streams of Buddhism are Theravada, Vajrayana and Mahayana. Mahayana contains many schools outside of Zen. obviously you know this, but I wanted to clarify.
2. Dazzle. I highly doubt you will find another Soto centre that does not utilise the heart sutra, as it is central to Soto Zenshu liturgy. A Soto centre not using it is taking a somewhat unorthadox approach.
3. The link featuring a commentary by Brian Ruhe, the tone is most definitely sectarian. Even to the point of Mr. Ruhe stating "Devas exist. Deities do not exist".
I'm not certain how Mr. Ruhe has the ability to know which myths are true and which aren't that he can state it in such a matter of fact way, but I think he might have a tough time convincing anyone outside of Buddhism that "Deva's exist" unless he means purely in a mythological way.
4. All Suttas and Sutras were "composed a long time after the death of the Buddha"
Speaking for myself, I feel that if a teaching is true, it is unimportant who said it, or when.
This is a key point that people often forget. Buddhism isn't supposed to be dogmatic. It's about truth, not being a follower. Sure, we believe the buddha speaks truth, but ultimately we're truth-seekers and not buddha-followers(sure, as buddhists we understand that they're the same thing. But the focus is on truth, and the only reason we follow the buddha is because he speaks truth.) Gautama does not have a monopoly on the truth.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html
Just my view of it. You may see it otherwise.
That is quite right.
All internet group chat in general is just views and opinions, so its best not to take it too seriously and neglect our offline practice.
I've heard more than one teacher from more than one tradition speak jokingly about the internet. I've heard a Vajrayana teacher said that if Milarepa had a computer it would probably have delayed his enlightenment, I've heard a Theravada teacher say that if we're looking for arhants we won't find them on the internet in Facebook.
Time to start my busy city (rather chilly) day now .
Lots of good wishes to everyone and have a lovely day yourselves.
D.
This article is by Ajahn Amaro who is taking over from Ajahn Sumedho very soon as abbot of Amaravati Monastery UK, when Ajahn Sumedho goes to Thailand to retire next month.
Ajahn Amaro mentions the Heart Sutra in the article.
"Between Arhat and Bodhisattva - Finding the Perfect Balance"
http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2008/summer/balance.php
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