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Faith
seeker242
ZenFlorida, USA Veteran
Some people seem to believe that faith plays no part in Buddhism. Which is fine, to each his own. 
However, as I understand it, this is not in accordance with what the Buddha actually taught his disciples? Yes?
I have read here that his teaching on this is usually taken out of context.
And reading here the below:
However, as I understand it, this is not in accordance with what the Buddha actually taught his disciples? Yes?
I have read here that his teaching on this is usually taken out of context.
Curious of people's thoughts on this, especially people well versed in the suttas.On the basis of a single passage,[from the Kalama Sutta] quoted out of context, the Buddha has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he likes.
But does the Kalama Sutta really justify such views? Or do we meet in these claims just another set of variations on that egregious old tendency to interpret the Dhamma according to whatever notions are congenial to oneself
And reading here the below:
It appears to me that faith plays quite an important role? What do you all think?Two factors of inner progress which supplement, support and balance each other are intellect (pañña) and faith (saddha). If intellect remains without the confidence, devotion and zeal of faith, it will stop short at a mere theoretical understanding and intellectual appreciation of teachings meant to be lived and not only thought or talked about. In the words of our simile: intellect, if not helped by the hero of faith, will merely "run up and down the bank of the stream," an activity with a very busy and important appearance but with few actual results. Intellect separated from faith will lack the firm belief in its own power to be the guide on the path of life. Without this inner conviction it will hesitate to follow in earnest its own conclusions and commands; it will lack the courage to make an actual start on the task of "crossing over."
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When first taking refuge I wrote this down and sealed it with wax... "Perfect Tathagata, beautiful Tathagata, I open my hear to your blessing, I open my mind to your Dharma, I have deep faith in your way". That was around 89. It set the whole heart down the road.
When the Theravadin Sangha meets we chant..... "Homage to the Blessed, Noble, and perfectly Enlightened one" (namo tassa....).
When the Zen sangha meets we chant homage to the three jewels, (ji-shim gwi-myong-nye .... you know that one
Rousing faith is integral to the path. It might rouse differently for different people, but a devotion to the path, and to "the Blessed One's desciples who have practiced well" in some form, is part of it.
What do you mean by faith? I find faith is an overworked noun.
I have no faith that any of what we have now as the written buddha's teachings can be directly attributed to the buddha. So to buddhist skeptics like me, claims about "in accordance with" must be a doubted as any claim.
I don't think the passages about the ten conditions of doubt in the Kalama Sutta have any context to be taken out of; it is a list of epistemic domains subject to doubt. And the list is wholly comprehensive, covering all transposable human knowledge.
But, as the Buddha instructs in this suttra, we should doubt even the suttra itself.
namaste
In addition, of course, the opposite of faith is not doubt. Doubt is an essential component of faith, which is also very different from 'knowledge'.
Faith Plus One
These passages sum it up well.
From here: And here:
I see your point.
Yes, completely. And how is doubt silenced? Surely not by repressing it or ignoring it? That doesn't seem very Dharmic to me.
I believe the way doubt is silenced (and to me this is the spirit of the Kalama Suttra) is by its full application, only when it has been applied totally can one be said to not doubt.
I have tried to doubt that all things are impermanent or interconnected or empty. Like, tried real hard. I cannot doubt it. The same with the four noble truths and all they entail about human experience, these are indubitable.
To me, this is what the hindrance is, the inability or incapacity or lack of diligence to fully exercise doubt.
Maybe. I guess it has the connotation of being "negative just for the sake of it." Which entirely misses the mark. Rather doubt is the process that leads to certainty and/or clarity.
namaste
Yep, a meaningful and powerful one: prejudge any claim as dubious (able to be doubted) until it can no longer be doubted.
Mind you, in this culture of ours (humanity, not buddhism per se) we have been conditioned to frown upon doubt as a negative attitude.
Galileo...
Galilei...
Sure, but that is not an extinguishable doubt, unlike a doubt about the aggregate mind or universal emptiness.
It seems one way buddhists can be categorised is into those that believe the Buddha taught something like "Doubt everything, be your own light" and those that find that notion an anathema.
I doubt both views.
And another, "Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
A related Ch'an saying says the four prerequisites for practice are great faith, great doubt, great vow, and great vigor.
Now, if I could just get the "great vigor" part going.......
This is from the Kwan Um school of Zen...
"The Zen path begins and ends by asking "Who am I?" When you ask this question very deeply, what appears is only "don’t know". All thinking is completely cut off and you return to your before thinking mind. If you attain this don’t know, you have already attained your true self."
The Great Doubt of Zen involves the courage to give up ground, the doubt of doubters is holding ground. Faith in Buddhism is having nothing to hold, whereas the doubt of doubters involves faith in what they hold tightly.
I think so. Perhaps there are 2 kinds of doubt, skillful and unskillful? Skillful would be doubt about all the things (that are false according to the Buddha) that our minds want us to believe is true. "I am" would probably be the biggest one. Others would be something like "If I satisfy this craving, then I'll be happy", etc. Having doubt about all your personal preconceived notions of life, I think, is what skillful doubt is. Which, for me, is really nothing other than having faith that what the Buddha said is true.
I personally use the question "What is this?" as far as the "great question" goes. The "I" in the other question kinda ruins it for me.
I agree, repressing or ignoring it is not very wise. I think that doubt is silenced simply by diligently practicing the Buddha's path. However, I can see how this doubt can go too far sometimes. If you really doubt that practice can lead to wisdom and the end of suffering, like the Buddha said, then where is the motivation to practice coming from? It seems to me that it would be absent if it were not for the faith that is can lead to wisdom and the end of suffering, since the motivation for my practice is the faith that it can.
Perhaps you just need to get older and stricken with cancer and given a year to live by the doctors. I bet that would arouse some vigor!
Really helps in my meditation to get into samadhi. I think it's an actual requirement for that last leap into space. You have faith.