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Is buddhism nihilistic?

edited October 2010 in Buddhism Basics
I know the official answer is no, but I'm just wondering. Right now I'm in a place in my life where lots of great things are happening, but I'm seized by an anxiety over messing up, or let other people steal them away from me. I (sort of) realise that this is neurotic, and definitely that its spoiling my enjoyment of my life. At the same time, I wonder whether it would be stupid (and nihilistic) to sit back and let things mess up and let people steal things. One answer might be that if I sat back and let go, things would actually work out - but I think thats more wishful thinking and not necessarily buddhist (since letting go would be good karma, but not necessarily mean these particular things in my life working out).

The Buddhist advice seems to be that its not such a big deal and not to worry about it, to sit back and let go, but I wonder if I do that if I'll just miss opportunities and regret my laziness (since my letting go would be coming from being tired of feeling anxious all the time) further down the line.

What do you guys think?

Comments

  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Are you sure you're not talking about the Reefer Doctrine?
  • edited October 2010
    what got be thinking about this was an article on Pema Chodron:

    "When you awaken from sleep you know that the enemies in your dreams are an illusion. That realization does a lot to cut through the drama. In the same way, instead of acting out of impulse, you could slow down and ask yourself, Who is this monolithic me that has been so offended? And who is this other person that they can trigger me like this? What is this praise and blame that it can hook me like a fish, that it can burn me like a flame burns a moth? What is going on here that outer things have the power to propel me from hope to fear, from happy to miserable, like a ping-pong ball?

    Contemplate that these outer things, as well as these emotions, as well as this huge sense of me, are passing and essenceless, like a memory, like a movie, like a dream. "

    I wonder if the comparison to a dream like state is like saying it doesnt really matter... I suppose that is kind of like the reefer doctrine, which is why I was asking!

    This article is available at http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/swya3.php by the way
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I know the official answer is no, but I'm just wondering. Right now I'm in a place in my life where lots of great things are happening, but I'm seized by an anxiety over messing up, or let other people steal them away from me. I (sort of) realise that this is neurotic, and definitely that its spoiling my enjoyment of my life. At the same time, I wonder whether it would be stupid (and nihilistic) to sit back and let things mess up and let people steal things. One answer might be that if I sat back and let go, things would actually work out - but I think thats more wishful thinking and not necessarily buddhist (since letting go would be good karma, but not necessarily mean these particular things in my life working out).

    The Buddhist advice seems to be that its not such a big deal and not to worry about it, to sit back and let go, but I wonder if I do that if I'll just miss opportunities and regret my laziness (since my letting go would be coming from being tired of feeling anxious all the time) further down the line.

    What do you guys think?

    It is good to hear that things are good just now, jlseagull90 (not only a version of Jonathon Livingstone S., but also Jo 90!), I trsut that you are taking full advantage, with gratitude in your heart.

    If Buddhist practice fails to enhance life and lead to greater happiness, it is of no more value that a pile of ... waste matter - recycle it and make it useful.

    The good times may well give way to different ones, less preferable. That is what happens, no need for a Buddha to tell you that. What you can do, however, is to have used the good times to build up your resources against the coming of scarcity. You do this by remaining in and dedicating your attention and energy to the present moment.

    And look again at Kipling's If.
  • edited October 2010
    Thanks Simonthepilgrim. I also like that you reminded me of the poem. I think the root of my problem might be not trusting myself (thus not trusting others not to take advantage) - that seems to be key in the poem. But then I wonder if the root of that problem is. Whether it might be legitimate not to trust myself with looking after the good things in my life. If that makes sense... I could practice metta for myself and develop a sense of trusting myself, but then make bad decisions and stupidly trust myself to make them! I suppose that would be better than worrying all the time, and being paranoid that my friend will turn into enemies and take things away from me.

    Anyway thanks for your advice, the thing I am going to take away most is the idea of gratitude.
  • edited October 2010
    I realise I just turned this thread from a philosophical question into a personal one! If you don't mind, Simonthepilgrim, could you help me to understand how being in the present moment is not nihilistic, because although I have had the experience of being much happier in the present moment, my present moment is often spoiled by concern over the future. However, I wonder if being in the present moment all the time and not thinking about the future is nihilitic, because its like saying the future doesn't matter.

    I feel like through meditation I've started to really develop a sense of awareness of my thoughts now (its been about 2 years), but my faith is starting to wane in some of the wisdom... or I guess what I'm saying is I have the awareness now (I know I'm in thought cycles of aggression, fear, anxiety and attachment a lot of the time), but I don't really have the wisdom to have the confidence to totally let them go or... I don't know what to replace them with... if someone could help me understand how buddhism is NOT nihilistic in this way I'd be more ready to put my faith into letting go and being in the present moment
  • pineblossompineblossom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Right now I'm in a place in my life where lots of great things are happening, but I'm seized by an anxiety over messing up, or let other people steal them away from me.

    What can they steal - your anxiety?

    You sound as if you are torn between what this competitive world wants you to do and some understanding of the teachings.

    All things change. Even if you get what you want you know that will change.

    Here's something from Longchenpa ...

    Your political power, wealth, connections, good fortune and reputation
    May spread all over the world.
    When you die, these things will not help you at all.
    Work at your practice - that's my sincere advice.


    From 'Thirty Pieces of Sincere Advice'.
  • edited October 2010
    Thanks Pineblossom, actually you've hit upon something which got me into asking whether it was nihilistic in the first place... the belief that everything changes - obviously this is an absolute truth, and I'm not disagreeing with it, but is there a danger it can be used as an excuse for nihilism? What I mean to say is... a danger of using it as a reason to turn away from the world and deny anxiety by saying "it doesnt matter, it will all change anyway", rather than a kind of turning towards the world and embracing the anxiety...I know this sounds like a subtle difference but to me it feels really important right now, because it comes down to how precisely to relate to feelings of anxiety, attachment, and the present moment... so I'm not disagreeing with the wisdom of acknowledging impermanence but I feel like I don't know exactly how to use this wisdom - should I let go, sit back, and not worry about bad stuff happening (because its gonna happen anyway), or is there a wiser way to use this wisdom? At the moment I do feel a bit like if I just let go in this way, it would be a bit "reefer doctrine"! In the sense of numbing myself to anxiety, and also to the enjoyment of the good things, rather than somehow embracing them in their impermanence
  • edited October 2010
    in my opinion. there is one all encompassing truth. That is the sum of all existence. That is real, and it is unchanging as it is beyond time and space.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Before I address your question, Jo 90, can you please define what you understand by 'nihilism'. I may be misunderstanding you and confusing it with pessimism or quietism.
  • edited October 2010
    By nihilism I mean the idea that life is pointless, and the corresponding belief that there is no point believing in anything or doing anything. In this sense it differs from pessimism whos focus is mainly that life is bad, or involves suffering. I don't know too much about quietism. To be honest I wasn't really talking about nihilism in an abstract philosophical sense, but more in the real every day sense in which I personally (and I believe, most other people) we encounter meaning whether its self-made or perceived as coming from the outside. I guess I would define nihilism as being the beleif that because life is pointless and impermanent, there's no point caring/worrying/believing in anything about it. This would be different from typical buddhist view points, I think, but I don't really understand how - somehow in typical buddhist views there seems to be some joy and even meaning taken in life. I just can't quite work it out... I feel like ignoring my anxiety about things I care about in life because they're impermanent anyway kind of misses the point, or is more nihilist than buddhist... basically what I am asking is if there is a more skillful way of relating to these phenomena than just trying to tell myself there's no point worrying because they're all impermanent anyway (they're still around for the duration of my life and the near future, after all).
  • TandaTanda Explorer
    edited October 2010
    jlseagull, you have written my own thoughts! I too wonder if I am sinking into Bhuddism in an escapist way when I should deal with the world as it is like so many others are doing.
    When you awaken from sleep you know that the enemies in your dreams are an illusion

    This dream- reality paradigm had been both inspiring me as well as perplexing me even in my childhood days--I used to think-- Just as my dream events and people are gone,what if I wake up from this life and realise that my father and mother and brother an sisters did not really exist?

    But then, I know a dream as a dream only when I am outside the dream. So living this life and thinking in this life, how I can conceive this life as a dream? Is not Pema Chordan also a part of the same illusion? Obviously I need another platform to look at this life and say it was all a dream!. What is that platform?

    When you die, these things will not help you at all.

    What is left of me when I die? I am searching for a common thread that runs through, coalesces and illuminates the three states of awareness, dream living and after life? If such a thread does exist, It should be possible to be seen.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Practically speaking, if it is your nature to worry and fret, (like me) over things, to all at once adopt a sit back and let it go attitude is nearly impossible. Over time a deepening realization of impermanence has made accepting the changes less painful, more joyful. For me it includes divorce, illness of my child, and deaths of both parents and numerous friends ect. Also, new additions to the family, my kids going to university and having success, a renewed friendship with my ex-wife, new living arrangements. Normal stuff. Watching my mother die recently was deeply mysterious, sad and joyful all at once. If you can live with impermanence in mind then even a stressful, negative event is not carved in stone and the outcome can be positive in time. Happy events become more meaningful somehow. Laughter comes more often and more easily. Mindfulness of day to day life when its going smoothly is relatively easy and it paves the way for calm acceptance of the more difficult situations. It doesn't rule out the occasional freak out and in my case it has taken years to develop a degree of realization sufficient to see actual changes in my reaction to events in the moment. There is plenty of material out there that will help you to avoid the pitfall of nihilism and move ahead to a deeper understanding of impermanence and dependent arising.-P
  • edited October 2010
    Robot, I really enjoyed reading your comment. Thank you for writing it. Do you think you could point me to some of the material you're talking about? It certainly is in my nature to worry and fret! Tanda, I hope this thread will also be useful for you.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited October 2010
    jlseagull90 thank you. If I were to give someone one book, it would be Shantideva's Way of the Bodhisattva from Shambala Library. It is a beautiful translation. It has an excellent introduction and for me it is quite inspirational. Pema Chodron has written a commentary on it called No Time To Lose. She did not comment on chapter 9 however which deals with emptiness. Chapter 9 could be considered a starting point for studying Madhyamaka. It provides a system of logic by which to examine your view as to existence or non existence, impermanence or permanence. To arrive at a view that takes the middle way between eternalism and nihilism. Shantideva was of the Mahayana School. Many people here study Theraveda and can recommend excellent books I'm sure. I believe there is a thread dedicated to recommended reading on here. Also there are plenty of more experienced folk than me here who can advise you. And I hope they will correct me if I'm way off base here.-P
  • pineblossompineblossom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Thanks Pineblossom, actually you've hit upon something which got me into asking whether it was nihilistic in the first place... the belief that everything changes - obviously this is an absolute truth, and I'm not disagreeing with it, but is there a danger it can be used as an excuse for nihilism? What I mean to say is... a danger of using it as a reason to turn away from the world and deny anxiety by saying "it doesnt matter, it will all change anyway", rather than a kind of turning towards the world and embracing the anxiety...I know this sounds like a subtle difference but to me it feels really important right now, because it comes down to how precisely to relate to feelings of anxiety, attachment, and the present moment... so I'm not disagreeing with the wisdom of acknowledging impermanence but I feel like I don't know exactly how to use this wisdom - should I let go, sit back, and not worry about bad stuff happening (because its gonna happen anyway), or is there a wiser way to use this wisdom? At the moment I do feel a bit like if I just let go in this way, it would be a bit "reefer doctrine"! In the sense of numbing myself to anxiety, and also to the enjoyment of the good things, rather than somehow embracing them in their impermanence

    Fatalism - that is what you are talking about.

    As Buddhists we accept karma - that actions bring about results. What you are experiencing now is the karmic imprint of previous action. To change the results you need to change the action - right behaviour brings about right results.

    There is also the perfection known as patience - something which is discouraged in an 'all at once' society. Patience is not just allowing things to happen.

    There are areas of my life that I must accept personal responsibility. There are other areas of my life that are completely out of my control. If it is my responsibility I need to make some decisions.

    Lama Zopa Rinpoche says that there are two problems we must face. If we can solve the problem then all is well and good. If we cannot solve the problem then there is no problem.

    I have no idea of what you mean by 'reefer doctrine' so I cannot provide any response in that matter.
  • edited October 2010
    I have no idea of what you mean by 'reefer doctrine' so I cannot provide any response in that matter.

    The doctrine that reefer is the key to enlightenment :lol:
  • edited October 2010
    No, Buddhism is about the middle path, neither nihilism nor eternalism.

    Some people say Buddhism is pessimistic. The first noble truth is realistic but it is necessary for us to look at what is wrong in our lives, so that we can improve our lives. A doctor would only treat a patient once the doctor knows what is wrong. The fourth noble truth is optimistic. So, my opinion is that Buddhism is realisticallly optimistic.
  • edited October 2010
    Its complicated.
    "Buddhism" is not nihilistic or pessimistic.
    However there are plenty of Buddhists and even some Buddhist teachers who are nihilists.
    Just like everything else, there is no single answer.
  • edited October 2010
    Thanks guys! I will put those books on my reading list Robot. Pineblossom thank you for your answer, I was talking about the "reefer doctrine" because of Valtiel's first reply, I presume he was using it to mean the philosophy of smoking weed to get rid of all your problems, which is kind of nihilist too...
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