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Can meditation bring us "true" thoughts?
So, over the past few months I've definitely discovered how delusional and out of touch thoughts can be. At the same time, I can't shake the idea that thoughts are an invaluable tool. They help us solve problems, plan our day, and analyze our past actions.
I've read that meditation can bring us to truth. I wonder, can it bring us to true thoughts? Many times after meditation a novel, new, and refreshing thought hits me. I wonder if it is true, or just another delusion of the mind.
I guess I need to define a "true thought". For me, it would be a thought that has meaning in the real world, that is insightful and relevant to what is actually happening. For example, thinking myself into believing a girl likes me who doesn't would be delusion, while thinking myself into believing she is interested when she actually is would be a true thought.
I guess this problem goes very deep, at its core I am questioning the value of thoughts in general, they have helped me and hurt me so much over the years. But, I guess more concretly, I am wondering if meditation can "tune" our thoughts, make them more in touch with reality and let our thought processes bring us to true conclusions.
Any personal opinions or quotes from texts?
I've read that meditation can bring us to truth. I wonder, can it bring us to true thoughts? Many times after meditation a novel, new, and refreshing thought hits me. I wonder if it is true, or just another delusion of the mind.
I guess I need to define a "true thought". For me, it would be a thought that has meaning in the real world, that is insightful and relevant to what is actually happening. For example, thinking myself into believing a girl likes me who doesn't would be delusion, while thinking myself into believing she is interested when she actually is would be a true thought.
I guess this problem goes very deep, at its core I am questioning the value of thoughts in general, they have helped me and hurt me so much over the years. But, I guess more concretly, I am wondering if meditation can "tune" our thoughts, make them more in touch with reality and let our thought processes bring us to true conclusions.
Any personal opinions or quotes from texts?
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Comments
You need to be in control of your thoughts... recognise whether a thought is helpful or not...
The example you used is going to be based on speculation either way. The only way to find that out is to ask. However, Buddhism does help to understand people, so you'd be more likely to know when someone is interested in you or not... but that's irrelevant to your question. The point is, your example is based on speculation... it's a gamble.
Yes, 'course meditation helps you think. You need to learn which thoughts lead you to suffering and which don't... follow through the entire process as well, you may find that something that you think helps you actually leads to suffering later.
Buddha didn't say don't think, in fact he said you need to think carefully because your actions may have grand consequences... don't confuse meditation with everyday situations. You want to clear your mind during meditation.
Also, clearing your mind does not mean not thinking... it may mean thinking clearly.
How can you recognise a truth without thinking it?
Your original reply did help, thanks.
The problem my question is concerning is this: Part of Buddhism is to avoid delusion, and to recognize that our thoughts can lead us there. To me, delusion is holding beliefs that are not true, if I thought I could fly I would be delusional. Meditation does help us control our thoughts, direct them, limit them, recognize them as separate from us. However, does it let us trust them? Just because I can choose to think about something does not mean the result of the thinking will have any worth in the real world.
Well, now thinking about it. I guess it could. Buddhism as a whole pushes us away from being influenced by cravings, temptations, greed, and towards love, acceptance, and generosity. As we become more influenced by these positive traits, perhaps our thoughts become more influenced by them as well. Thus, our thought process changes, it becomes more positive, less based on clinging to things or ideas and more on processing what simply is. Through Buddhist practice as a whole we can begin to not only control our thoughts more but also trust the wisdom they offer. The meditation aspect lets us control the tide of thoughts, and becoming more wholesome allows the thoughts to be more gentle, fulfilling, and full of wisdom.
Short answer to this (effective brevity is always best); words/thoughts are only for pointing to an experience, meditation is about slowly and surely (sometimes rapidly and surely) going beyond thought and belief to a direct experience of what is. The Shakyamuni Buddha became enlightened when he stopped trying to learn from others, but used his incredible concentration developed to just embrace and examine what the experience was. At this stage he had learnt to transcend thinking and treat it as it is.
If you are wondering what thinking is, then it's worth you working toward contemplating what thought is directly. All you need to do is once you've been sitting in meditation long enough for your thoughts to settle down naturally, ask gently what thoughts cause is, what it's root is, where it comes from etc. Observe and let the mind that we all share reveal all the answers for you.
By the way, if you can't fly, to think you can is deluded. But to say that it's impossible for you is a theory.
All best wishes to ya.
Matt : )
Good point, going off that, I could rephrase my question as "does meditation increase the quality of thoughts?". Which I'm beginning to believe is possible.
@gurugrimmer
Interesting answer. I believe thoughts, for me personally at least, are for more than just pointing to an experience. They can be used for processing what is known to find some truth, or insight, or some new piece of knowledge. Maybe this type of thought has a name, I would call it "purposeful thought" or "analytical thought". Thoughts can be used to gain insight about the self and the world. However, thoughts can also lead us to false conclusions. I wonder how we can tell if a thought led us to delusion or truth, and whether or not meditation tilts it towards truth.
Interesting answer. I believe thoughts, for me personally at least, are for more than just pointing to an experience. They can be used for processing what is known to find some truth, or insight, or some new piece of knowledge. Maybe this type of thought has a name, I would call it "purposeful thought" or "analytical thought". Thoughts can be used to gain insight about the self and the world. However, thoughts can also lead us to false conclusions. I wonder how we can tell if a thought led us to delusion or truth, and whether or not meditation tilts it towards truth.
In which case you get my meaning, and we are in agreement. One cannot taste an orange by having it described to them, they may get pretty close to imagining it, but nothing compares to a direct experience.
As you said words can do all kinds of things, but to experience it is the only thing no-one can argue. As the great Shakyamuni Buddha said -
"The raft is not the shore, once you have used the raft to cross a river, you do not carry the raft on your back, that would be a waste of energy"
well, I don't know exactly what he said, but that's a rough translation lol
Interesting discussion...
The fewer words said to explain the better too, good job of doing just that Mountains
Mind you, sometimes many words are called for ... sometimes. Thankfully, not to often though.
Bingo
Of course...Nothing like taking the axe of Shunyata and cutting away the tree of self grasping
Also, AFTER the meditation I sometimes use thoughts to ask myself "what just happened? how did I approach the meditation? how has my mind changed since the beginning of the meditation? is it more peaceful or more agitated? why?"
That's it. Most thoughts are useless. Even thoughts that are useful are limited. Use thoughts but see their limitations.
Meditation is seeing the arising and passing of thought over and over again until we cease to identify with the thought stream. When there is no longer entanglement in conceptual constructs, including self image, we can open up to what by definition is not reducible to conceptual constructs, and can only be characterized as non-suffering.
You can take this post to bank...
I would argue that quality, by the definition I use, is not a subjective term of ego. Assuming there is a world outside of our perception, we can compare the insight our thoughts bring us to the reality of the outside world and from that judge an objective accuracy, or "quality". I believe Buddhism can help us achieve thoughts that are more frequently useful, in that sense.
Ah, this is what I am getting at.
I don't think either of the above would apply, because it stops you from "thinking yourself into believing" anything, which it seems is what you are trying to get at. When you stop "thinking yourself into believing" stuff, then you can observe the actual reality of a situation, without putting your own "stuff" on top of it. With the result being "trueness", since putting your own "stuff" on top of it is what causes it to be untrue to begin with.