All dressed up and nowhere to go...

throughlyconfused

As a person lets go of attachments, desires, expectations, etc; how do you make your life not feel empty?

I guess to put the question differently, how does one reconcile knowing that they are in this world very capable of affecting it and doing things, and simply opt out?

andyrobyn

Hi thoroughlyconfused,

your comment reminded of me of a discussion I had with a friend of a friend ( Chrissie ) who I was asked to be sponsor for ( years ago now ) when she was wanting to confirm as a Catholic after being baptised and not having any experience of practicing in the religion.
I was a practising Catholic at the time and struggling with wanting to move forward and a friend thought I would connect and relate well to Chrissie, her friend.
I said to Chrissie at the time, in response to her honest expression that she couldn't honestly say that she will not want to sin again, in my usual style, the good news is if you understand the teachings as I do ( of Jesus, at that time) and I would say to you the same of the teachings with Buddhism, that there is nothing to worry about - fortunately or unfortunately !!! you are in control of the process, the progress and if you like what you see others have achieved give it a try !!

ShiftPlusOne

Affecting it how? Doing what things? What makes you say that Buddhists opt out of doing thing?

throughlyconfused

ShiftPlusOne.
What I mean by affecting and opting out is the following.

I know that I am a very capable being. I have 4 working limbs, and ability to speak, write, learn, create, and destroy all sorts of things from ideas to buildings. I could wake up tomorrow and write a book, have a discussion, or burn down a house; but to do any of those requires motivation.

I may write book or have a discussion in an effort to spread a message, or sell an item so I can make some money and acquire something. I may burn a house down as a job to make money or as an act of protest. Regardless of the exact reason I do anything, I usually have one (even if its a selfish or shallow one).

In my mind, decisions are made as follows. I create an expectation that an action will achieve a result (If I write a book, someone will read it and be swayed by it) and I also fulfill a desire (as people are swayed by the book, my message will be spread; a goal I desire to achieve).

Take away expectation and desire, and you've taken away the reason to write a book, have a conversation, build or destroy anything (at least in my very western purpose driven way of thinking.)

What I am struggling with is as you remove expectations and desires, I assume (but could be wrong) motivations goes with them. With motivation gone, what's left? What do I do with my abilities, powers, etc when there is nothing I am motivated to do with them?

I am really just having a very hard time mentally envisioning a life without desires and expectations and asking myself what it would be like.

I think what AndyRobin is saying is that you play it by ear and you try to make it work for yourself. Despite the truth in the fact that it probably is a very personal thing and that nobody can tell me what I will feel; I guess I am still curious to learn about the experiences others have had in this transition.

milkmoth

This is from the Tao Te Ching (29)


Do you want to improve the world?
I don't think it can be done.

The world is sacred.
It can't be improved.
If you tamper with it, you'll ruin it.
If you treat it like an object, you'll lose it.

There is a time for being ahead,
a time for being behind;
a time for being in motion,
a time for being at rest;
a time for being vigorous,
a time for being exhausted;
a time for being safe,
a time for being in danger.

The Master sees things as they are,
without trying to control them.
She lets them go their own way,
and resides at the center of the circle.

seeker242

What I am struggling with is as you remove expectations and desires, I assume (but could be wrong) motivations goes with them. With motivation gone, what's left? What do I do with my abilities, powers, etc when there is nothing I am motivated to do with them?

The only motivation that goes is self-serving motivation. The motivation to give help to others becomes stronger and this is where the abilities, powers, etc. are used.

Mountains

throughlyconfused wrote: »

As a person lets go of attachments, desires, expectations, etc; how do you make your life not feel empty?

By letting go of attachments, desires, expectations, etc. That was easy! Life (at least mine) is much more enjoyable, fuller, and less stressful than before I started letting go of that stuff. And when I find myself starting to cling, inevitably things start getting stressed again. It's a causal relationship.

ShiftPlusOne

throughlyconfused wrote: »

ShiftPlusOne.
What I mean by affecting and opting out is the following.

I know that I am a very capable being. I have 4 working limbs, and ability to speak, write, learn, create, and destroy all sorts of things from ideas to buildings. I could wake up tomorrow and write a book, have a discussion, or burn down a house; but to do any of those requires motivation.

I may write book or have a discussion in an effort to spread a message, or sell an item so I can make some money and acquire something. I may burn a house down as a job to make money or as an act of protest. Regardless of the exact reason I do anything, I usually have one (even if its a selfish or shallow one).

In my mind, decisions are made as follows. I create an expectation that an action will achieve a result (If I write a book, someone will read it and be swayed by it) and I also fulfill a desire (as people are swayed by the book, my message will be spread; a goal I desire to achieve).

Take away expectation and desire, and you've taken away the reason to write a book, have a conversation, build or destroy anything (at least in my very western purpose driven way of thinking.)

What I am struggling with is as you remove expectations and desires, I assume (but could be wrong) motivations goes with them. With motivation gone, what's left? What do I do with my abilities, powers, etc when there is nothing I am motivated to do with them?

I am really just having a very hard time mentally envisioning a life without desires and expectations and asking myself what it would be like.

I think what AndyRobin is saying is that you play it by ear and you try to make it work for yourself. Despite the truth in the fact that it probably is a very personal thing and that nobody can tell me what I will feel; I guess I am still curious to learn about the experiences others have had in this transition.

Then why are there so many Buddhist books?

NamelessRiver

As a person lets go of attachments, desires, expectations, etc; how do you make your life not feel empty?

You are not supposed to let go of desire or expectations. Desire is a part of the noble eightfold path (right effort). You are supposed to let go of craving. As for renunciation as part of Right Intention, it just means a change of priority from the mundane to the "spiritual".

how do you make your life not feel empty?

As long as you don't know the difference between pleasure and happiness, your life can feel empty even when it is fueled by desire.

GuyC

DISCLAIMER: The following is my understanding, some of it may be wrong, so please do not take it as an accurate representation of the Buddha's Teaching. Do your own research...

I think it would help a great deal if you studied the Suttas. Some of the terminology used by Buddhists can be confusing if you don't understand what that terminology represents. For example, words such as craving/desire/attachment are often spoken of as something which we should uproot. But there are specific types of craving (3 to be exact) which the Buddha meant, which are defined in the Suttas:

1) Craving for sensuality (in other words, craving to have some kind of contact through the five senses)
2) Craving for being (wanting to exist)
3) Craving for non-being (wanting to not exist)

For more on craving see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/tanha.html

These three are the problem, these are what lead to suffering. Craving to end craving is wholesome if it leads us to practice the Path.

"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun" (AN 4.159), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, July 3, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html

Once we have perfected all the path factors we are done with craving and attachment forever. The Buddha explained this with the Simile of the Raft. We use the Dhamma like a raft for crossing over the stream of craving. Once we are safely on the far shore we can abandon the raft.

The Raft

13. "I shall show you, monks, the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to. Listen, monks, and heed well what I shall say" — "Yes, Lord," replied the monks. and the Blessed One spoke thus:
"Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water of which this shore is perilous and fearful, while the other shore is safe and free from danger. But there is no boat for crossing nor is there a bridge for going over from this side to the other. So the man thinks: 'This is a vast expanse of water; and this shore is perilous and fearful, but the other shore is safe and free from danger. There is, however, no boat here for crossing, nor a bridge for going over from this side to the other. Suppose I gather reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and bind them into a raft.' Now that man collects reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and binds them into a raft. Carried by that raft, laboring with hands and feet, he safely crosses over to the other shore. Having crossed and arrived at the other shore, he thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not lift this raft on my head or put it on my shoulders, and go where I like?'
"What do you think about it, O monks? Will this man by acting thus, do what should be done with a raft?" — "No, Lord" — "How then, monks, would he be doing what ought to be done with a raft? Here, monks, having got across and arrived at the other shore, the man thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, and laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not pull it up now to the dry land or let it float in the water, and then go as I please?' By acting thus, monks, would that man do what should be done with a raft.
"In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to.
14. "You, O monks, who understand the Teaching's similitude to a raft, you should let go even (good) teachings,[14] how much more false ones!

The Discourse on the Snake Simile: Alagaddupama Sutta (MN 22)", translated from the Pali, with an Introduction and Notes by Nyanaponika Thera. Access to Insight, June 7, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel048.html.

Arahants (fully enlightened beings) still have intentions and motivations, but they are not built around a sense of self. The bodily, verbal and mental actions are like the flight of birds across the sky; leaving no trace.

3. Those who have no possessions, who nourish themselves according to knowledge and who realize the goal of freedom by perceiving that life is empty and transient, their path is hard to trace like the flight of birds through the sky.(92)

4. He whose appetites are slain and who is indifferent to food, who has perceived the goal of freedom by realizing that life is empty and transient, his path is hard to trace like the flight of birds through the sky. (93)

http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Dhammapada.htm

I am not sure how aware you are of what the Buddha Taught, but one of the main themes was the "Noble Eightfold Path". This shows us that there is a "right" way to speak and act. Buddhists do not merely sit around like a sack of potatoes, we do interact with others and the outside world.

questionful

I was lucky. I was born a lazy bum. I don't do much.

To offset the uselessness of that, I'll add that I think the mind gradually gets used to lower levels of stimulation. It's good to put up with the adjustment and maintain it (meditation), because then we can take it easy.

throughlyconfused

Thanks for all your replies. Its funny that the mental block I was having with these ideas is the one I work so hard at work to help people avoid.

With every project at work, my very first step is to always define terminology. Even if we all speak English, a word or phrase can mean different things to different people. It appears I was reading the words without really understanding what they actually meant and never stopped to redefine terminology in my mind for these new ideas.

I think I need to go back and reread a lot with this in mind and try again. I am sure I will make it further this time.