all of our buddha nature is moving towards universal enlightenment

TheJourney · October 2010

Here's something i've kinda toyed with off and on but never really put to words. Figured i'd make a thread about it. I should just say up front this is only for people who believe in buddha nature and dharmakaya. If you disagree with either of those doctrines that's totally fine, but this thread is not for you and i'd prefer to hear from people who have already accepted these doctrines.

If we are able to help others, as I feel that I have and will continue to be beneficial on other people's path, and we have not achieved enlightenment, how much more so can a bodhisattva or buddha help others. It is said that the buddha knew exactly how to help each individual. Then you have bodhisattvas who are also far along the path and help others. Well a buddha is simply a physical representation of the timeless truth, right? A manifestation of the buddha nature within us all. Doesn't it make sense that it/he/whatever(will call it it from now on)(not gautama per se, but buddha in general) could help in a way that is beyond being born on earth and achieving buddhahood and helping out for the rest of his physical life? It seems to me that if buddha nature encompasses all and is timeless it could do a lot more than that in terms of helping people to achieve enlightenment. Add that to the bodhisattvas and you have a force helping people towards enlightenment.

If buddha goes beyond an occasional physical manifestation, what does it/he/whatever do beyond that to help others achieve enlightenment? If it knows exactly how to help each individual, surely it knows that not everyone will respond to being preached to, at least right away. So who's to say that the person who said that one little comment that stuck with you and helped you on your path didn't say that out of a manifestation of the buddha nature? Maybe once someone achieves buddhahood, they are able to transcend time and space in their efforts to help others.

This I think less people will agree with, and i'll admit i've developed this part of it less than the first part. Once again, a lot of you are going to disagree with my basic premise, and if you do that's fine, but this thread(or at least this part) is not for you. We are all buddha by nature, buddha being a manifestation of dharmakaya, the unborn all-encompassing truth. That truth is our true self, and it is all that exists. This means there is no division ultimately, hence we are all buddha by nature. There's two ways I can look at this. First i'll do the one that is less drastic or whatever, cuz i'm pretty confident in at least this part, but not as much about the 2nd part. First, it seems to me that if buddha transcends time and space that any given thing that any given person says is buddha. Or at least could be buddha, i'm not sure which. Like I said, some people won't learn from being preached to, and surely buddha understands that. Note that when gautama lived he was preaching to monks and people who were already at high levels spiritually. Now here's the 2nd part that i'm shaky on and honestly just occured to me. Perhaps all of our buddha natures are helping eachother to realize our buddha nature, ultimately leading to universal realization of buddhahood, or at least enlightenment. Perhaps the fact that there is a manifestation of dharmakaya is proof that we will all get enlightened or achieve buddhahood. Or perhaps there is never universal enlightenment, and that's just the brilliance of it is trying to help others continuously.

These are just ideas i'm spitballin, so take them as they are and feel free to turn this into a discussion. I ask that noone is rude is all.

TheJourney · October 2010

There should be a question mark at the end of my title

exonesion · October 2010

TheJourney wrote: »

It is said that the buddha knew exactly how to help each individual. Then you have bodhisattvas who are also far along the path and help others. Well a buddha is simply a physical representation of the timeless truth that is buddha, right? Doesn't it make sense that it/he/whatever(will call it it from now on)(not gautama per se, but buddha in general) could help in a way that is beyond being born on earth and achieving buddhahood and helping out for the rest of his physical life? It seems to me that if buddha nature encompasses all and is timeless it could do a lot more than that in terms of helping people to achieve enlightenment. Add that to the bodhisattvas and you have a force helping people towards enlightenment.

I agree with your post that buddha nature and bodhisattvas helps people towards enlightenment but I think it is not so easy. Samsara is governed by the Law of Karma which states good action begets good results and wrong actions begets bad results. Those people who had committed severe crimes such as killing one's parents, killing an arahant, harming a buddha or insulting Buddhism, their Bad karma will lead them to rebirth in an unfortunate realms for many uncountable lifetimes to come even if they have the BuddhaNature and Dhammakaya within them.
If they had nurtured wrong views and go against the teachings of Buddhism, chances of meeting bodhisattvas are slim as birds of the same kind flock together. These kinds of people will meet papamitta(bad friends) in their future life times and commit even more bad karma as a result from influence from bad friends.

If one has good views, believe and practices Buddhism and wishes to be enlightened chances of them meeting a <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CUSER%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CUSER%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CUSER%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><style>  </style>[FONT=&quot]bodhisattvas[/FONT] will be very high as opposed to a 'fool'.

If buddha goes beyond an occasional physical manifestation, what does it/he/whatever do beyond that to help others achieve enlightenment?

My guess is that all the Buddhas who had achieved enlightenment in Nirvana could possibly help beings in Samsara. Even though they do not have a physical body(because they've abandoned and severed the causes of rebirth) they still can contact beings who are spiritually developed on their path to enlightenment especially bodhisattvas by contacting them via meditation.

First, it seems to me that if buddha transcends time and space that any given thing that any given person says is buddha. Or at least could be buddha, i'm not sure which. Like I said, some people won't learn from being preached to, and surely buddha understands that. Note that when gautama lived he was preaching to monks and people who were already at high levels spiritually.

There were people and monks under the dispensation of previous historical Buddhas. One reason why some people won't become enlightened or learn from Buddha's teaching could be because of several factors. Namely, amount of merit and amount of defilement and the perfection of parami.
Perhaps the Buddha taught those who didn't become enlightened as those teachings will somewhat be ingrained inside of them. And when they( the people whom the Buddha had taught) are to be born under the dispensation of another Buddha those teachings coupled with the Buddha Nature could help them realize the Truth better, ultimately attaining enlightenment.

Now here's the 2nd part that i'm shaky on and honestly just occured to me. Perhaps all of our buddha natures are helping eachother to realize our buddha nature, ultimately leading to universal realization of buddhahood, or at least enlightenment. Perhaps the fact that there is a manifestation of dharmakaya is proof that we will all get enlightened or achieve buddhahood. Or perhaps there is never universal enlightenment, and that's just the brilliance of it is trying to help others continuously.

These are just ideas i'm spitballin, so take them as they are and feel free to turn this into a discussion. I ask that noone is rude is all.

I'm sure that we've many counterparts and friends on our pursuit of enlightenment. As friends we help each other overcome defilements, accrue merits and then ultimately enlightenment. I cannot imagine the horror of being alone in Samsara, cultivating perfections while under the threat of being attacked by defilements and bad karma.
I think that the Dhammakaya and Buddhanature exist in each and everyone of us but I could not think of any words as of now. However I would recommend this E-book about Vijja Dhammakaya which would help me put my meaning across.

I hope my words are not offensive or rude and I hope you could spend some time reading the aforementioned document

TheJourney · October 2010

I appreciate the link! I love this kind of reading, so i'm always looking for new material. And you weren't rude at all.

Also I understand not being able to think of words. Sometimes when I realize things I can't tell people about it because I can't think of a way to describe it that would do it justice. That's why I don't even try to explain my ideas to people who aren't somewhat on the same wavelength as me, as you have to have accepted some of the things that i've already accepted in order to accept new ideas I get, and explaining my final idea won't make sense if you haven't already accepted some previous ideas of mine.

GuyC · October 2010

If you want to move towards Enlightenment then practice the Noble Eightfold Path. First work on perfecting the Path yourself, then you are in the best possible position to help others achieve the same. Whether or not the rest of the universe wants to do the same is secondary and is beyond your control. Even the Buddha came across people who simply weren't interested in hearing the Dhamma.

RichardH · October 2010

There are no guarantees, by any transcendent entity. Liberation is work, and you find support and inspiration where you can. You have the capacity to practice the eightfold path and be free, and you have the capacity to get swept away for a long long time.

Simonthepilgrim · October 2010

The Journey, as you say that you enjoy reading, may I suggest
The Phenomenon of Man?

The author is Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a palaeantologist (discovered Peking Man) and Jesuit priest. Believing that Darwin's work and our developing understanding of the processes of evolution were crucial and transformative events for humanity and the Universe at large, he arrived at a notion of the Omega Point where/when (to use Biblical language) all is 'gathered in'.

If it interests you, there is a mathematical physicist who has written more on the subject:
Frank Tipler

Whilst both Teilhard and Tipler come from Christian traditions and points of view, I think that their ideas deserve serious consideration here because they stress the importance of the processes of evolution. It has often struck me that much discussion among Buddhists (and, indeed, among members of other belief clubs) centres on pre-Darwin understandings and texts. There seems to be an unvoiced presupposition that everything is subject to the laws of evolution except one particular set of texts, rituals, and one particular understanding.

RichardH · October 2010

Chardin's ideas are compelling, but the idea that we all inevitably evolve to the Omega Point seems pre-Darwinian too. Flowers bloom, it is their thrust, their teleology, yet some seeds fall in poor soil and grow stunted. Some get eaten by squirrels. Maybe in the Big Picture it all works out though.

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all of our buddha nature is moving towards universal enlightenment

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